Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode · 7 months ago

COVID-19 a Year Later: Perspectives from Pastor and Doctor Miguel Núñez


Dr. Miguel Núñez, Pastor for Preaching & Vision at IBI and President of Ministerios Integridad & Sabiduría, left his medical practice to follow his passion of preaching the Gospel. When COVID-19 broke out in 2020, he used his medical expertise to assess the situation for The Gospel Coalition. Now, one year later, he again offers his insights to you, along with a conversation about how the preaching of the Gospel is spreading in the Dominican Republic.

Life and Books and Everything is sponsored by Crossway, publisher of The Wisdom Pyramid: Feeding Your Soul in a Post-Truth World by Brett McCracken.  

Helping believers navigate today’s media-saturated culture, Brett McCracken presents a biblical case for wisdom. Inspired by the food pyramid model, The Wisdom Pyramid challenges us to increase our intake of enduring, trustworthy sources while moderating our consumption of less reliable sources. 

For 30% off this book and all other books and Bibles at Crossway, sign up for a free Crossway+ account at 


The Wisdom Pyramid [0:00 – 1:26] 

March Madness & COVID-19 [1:26 – 4:05] 

Introducing Dr. Miguel Núñez [4:05 – 6:01] 

Revisiting COVID-19 a Year Later [6:01 – 10:59] 

Why Developing Countries Handled COVID-19 Better [10:59 – 15:11] 

Fear & Surprises [15:11 – 19:27] 

What’s coming next? [19:27 – 22:20] 

What COVID-19 Reveals About Our Spiritual Condition [22:20 – 27:24] 

The Backstory of Dr. Miguel Núñez [27:24 – 33:17] 

The Backstory of the Dominican Republic [33:17 – 43:47] 

Influences in the Gospel Movement of the Dominican Republic [43:47 – 51:10] 

The View of the U.S. Church from Latin America [51:10 – 59:48] 

Americanos Hablando Español [59:48 – 1:04:20]  

Greetings and salutations loyallisteners welcome back to life and books and everything this is Kevin D, young and I'm joinedwith Colin Hanson and Justin Taylor, whom you will hear from shortly, andalso our special guests to. I will introduce in just a moment to want tothink again crossway for sponsoring this podcast lots of good books comingup and crossway. Today we want to highlight the newest from Britt.Mccrackin always is nomnally a good writer but loks of thoughtfulness and looking at current events, and forsomeone Colin, you know because he writes for TGC all the time for someonewho is so attuned to media and movies, and television he's the right person tohave written this book. The wisdom period pyramid feeding your soul in apost truth world that may sound strange, but Brett actually thinks a lot aboutthat and is a very thoughtful commenter and intaker of media. So the wisdompyramid, feeding your soul on a posttruth world published by Crosswaybrettmccrack and check that out all right here we are and as we're recording this, we are onthe cusp of many basketball, tournaments and Marchmadness. I do think that my spartans are going to make it. Sadly, I don't think that northwesternwinning the first three losing thirteen in a row and then winning the lastthree it's going to do it in Nebraska is well cemented in the basement. Anycomments, Colin and just let's, let's just say I I did not win the life and books andeverything tournament and football due to that losslike to Michigan State thatI do not want to talk about, but because of yesterday's last second win,I did win it in basketball, so take that nrthwestern took down bothMichigan State and Nebraska in Baskeballcolin, and I may have been theonly two people in America texting each other about that game. I wrote Justin right away and said Iwas far too emotionally invested in that day. Well, are you rooting forAlabama now in basketball? Of course, of course, hat just makes things moreinteresting. They play a very fun brand of basketball, more fun, I might say,than Nebraska and northwesterns brand, but hey, I'm just glad. We've got Marchbadness back I wa Gad. We got something to watch. That was one of many smaller losses, butnevertheless a loss from the last year and one of the first signs that thingswere not going to be okay last year. So I'm justgrateful Yot two connections to Covid I mean number one Nebraska, their entireteam, including coaching staff, got coed in the middle of the season andthey were out for like a month and a half of no games and then going back tolast year. That was the time I think that I realized. Oh, this is a really big dealwhen I was on an airplane flying back from Chicago to Sioux City and lookedat my phone and saw the NBA seasons canceled. They don't just cancel that over theflue, so that was that was a big makup call. We you remember earlier that theUtah Jazz player had made a joke about it and wipe down the microphone andeverything, and then three days later he's got it, and at that time we didn'tknow what that meant. We didn't know if that meant. Oh, mygosh, this guy's got a real chance to lose his life here now, a year later weknow that that was not almost. It was almost certainly not going to happen,but at the time we just didn't know.

That was a scary time and thankfully welearned a lot last year. Well, that is good segue to today's guest, who is well knowledge, well versed andknowledgeable on many subjects, including covid. So we're going to askhim about that. We are very pleased to have migel Nounez with us when I goglethat I found that he is also an actor just like Steven Nichols was there'snothing else. Yes, B t this is the pastor mgel noon. Yez mcgael has beengracious enough with his wife. Kathy has been in Charlotte for the pastseveral days and spoke at our missions. Conference at a wonderful job gave twogreat expositions from Second Corinthians Five and our church hasbeen doing a number of things with our folks, so thank you. MIGEL MIGELL hasreceived his masters of theology at Southern Baptist School for BiblicalStudies, a doctor of ministry from Southern Baptist, theological seminaryN, Luiville and a doctor of medicine and will hear about that, but hepracticed and taught for many years in New Jersey. He has been for the past.He'll tell us more fifteen years, twenty years, thepastor for preachingin vision at Aglaci, Aboutista internacinal and president ofMinisterios Integrida at Sevadoria. I do in Santadomingo, deminican Republiche's a council member for the Gospel Coalition, also vice president atCoalescion, its author, numerous books and is a very smart and humble man. Hiswife Kathy, is also a doctor and, Inter chronologistpracticing physician they've been married for almost forty years. Mgualwow, you sound, really smart. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for theopportunity. E has been a great time to be here, a you church and are withthise two other friends just entailer and coing handsom. So thank you dalingagain. Well, thank you. So we will talk about your pastoral ministry. Sometheology, that's what's nearest to your heart and what your most what's mostimportant, but also important, especially in this past year, is yourexpertise in medicine, and this is not just like you know somebody who, yearsand years ago, did a little medicine on the sinme you really. This is yourexpertise, infectious diseases and you have been very busy in the DominicanRepublic for the past year. So here's my first question: You wrote a piecefor TGC. I just looked. It was almost exactly a year ago when covid firstreally got the world's attention. Do you feel, like you, your assessmentfrom a year ago was more or less correct, or would you change what youthought of Covid March, two thousand and twenty well in general? I think Ithink I thought about it in the right direction. It was definitely the respiratoryillness I think by February or last year they were publications alreadypredicting. That imimmortality was not going to be more than one percent that the behavior of the virus was inSun Sense, similar to what the flu virus is and that what we needed to dois what has been done: Wesperaltory, isolation, type of measures and thathas been maintained, the numbers in terms of motality. I think it's just about point fivepoint, six point: Seven dependent upon the region, the same thing that had been predicted,it's a virus that it was supposed to behave, the way the flue virus behavesand, and luckily the virus does not have the mortalitythat the first sarks cop virus had...

...which was Abad. Ten percent neither hadhas had the mortality of what the Marks Syndrome, which is also a corona virusinfection, causing sotie Arabian in two thousand and twelve, which was aboutthirty five percent. So I think the virus has behaved N, insinin some sense, in a very similar way that was predicted in other ways.However, I think some of the complications that we have seen we didnot predict that. I think the virus has been able to do some things that we didnot know because the other corona viters didn't do it. So there's one assbuct that we could say: No, no one would have guessed. That iscomplications. I think that we all have to make that so looking back and there's adifference between being an infectious disease, physician and being a publicpolicy expert, but looking back now over a year, are there things that youthink the globe or the US or the DominicanRepublic policies? We should have done differently that would have either mitigated the disease better or,if not mitigating the disease would have been basically the same as whatwe've had without being as disruptive. What do you think we've learned in thepast year that we could have done differently yeah? I think thepopulation in some areas were not as discipline and they were not as prudent,and I think it does. Two things would have been taken into consideration,meaning we would have listened to the instructions in e consistent way and wewould have followed them in general. I think probably we would have donebetter, at least in certain areas, ind certain countries. Now they are othercountries and regions where things probably would have been the same, nomatter what, and that has to do with ris factors. We know now that probably the number one respectoryobicity and ninety percent of the of the death have occur in countries wherethe obysity raid is hat te highest, and that is the US and Europe, and when youlook at Italy, Italy, that's what happened in Spain and in the US andthen Ou. Look at countries in the third Woll area werenothing much was done and were we don't have a little resources and they havedone fairly well. In general, Africa has done very well in general haily,which is a country which has almost no resources. Their disease has not beenso catastrophic as he was predicted, and I think now we know some thingsabout it and therefore I think they are so mareas were, I think, no matter whatprobably would havew we would have done the same so mgell. I remember last year, whenyou publishe that article with us one of the things you commended was wearingmasks and a lot of people got upset at you for saying that, because DrFouchees recommendations and the CDC at the time we're saying no to masks now.We know in retrospect that that was, I guess, an effort to keep the public from rating masks andtaking them away from health care workers. As far as we know from that,if I've understand that correctly, it was a confusing time in some ways ayear ago, I'm so glad you talked about the difference around the world,because I just read a fascinating New York Times newsletter speculating whythis has not been so devastating in much a majority world in Africa inparticular, and I'm wondering if you concur with some of this, you mentionedobesity. I don't think they even mentioned that factor, but I thinkyou're exactly right about that from everything I've seen, but they alsomentioned the population, especially in much of the majority world, is muchyounger, less use of air conditioning.

I e more time spent outside and alsofewer elderly people in nursing homes. Does that accord with your expectations?Yeah Yeah, I think so I think without a doubt, people who are young dosignificantly better. The mortality for people below theeight thirty five is probably around zero point: Zero: Zero, zero one!That's almost like unheard of that that a person less than fetify wit dit.Obviously, when you have two and a half million people diagnosed with thedcease, some of them would be within below that age. But that's not verycommon. When you look at children, the chances of a child getting into ahospital from college people, children who have covered is less than one andtwenty thousand. So without a doubt, then H is a significant factor and then,when you look at the US, you look at Italy: U Lik Spain, older populationalso teyr and therefore higher montality. So yes certainly and obesity.Well, an article that came out three days ago, I think from a YalyUniversity is looking looking at five proteen related to neutral fields.That's the kind of white sells that we have and they are they obyse ofbhese people will have higherlevels of this protein on a normal normal day, the without covere withoutpandemic. Now, when they get hit with the virus,then those protens go even higher and those protins a are now linked to amuch higher motality. So you can see that obicit Isis- I don't know if I want to call ita desease at this point, but it's a condition that put people at a higherrisk for many conditions, including now these currona virus that we know of ithas been said and now has been proven. That ovicity causes a low, greatinflammatory condition andcatiens, who are who have higher than what they shouldhave a weight. So there is t e problem there and doesthat apply basically across the board torespiratory viruses, or is there something unique about covid withregard to age and children and Obesity Oris? Thispretty much part for the course when you're dealing with viruses like thiswell obysity does add a significant mortality to to any infections that I experience. SoI think we knew some of that already, but I think we covered we have seen iteven playing and more significant roll,probably because longs are affected a little more frequently. We cover themwith other infects of theses agents, so that may be one of the difference. MICOhas anything surprised you I mean any surprise with how things haveprogressed. I mean either either spiritually or ormetically. Well, hat.Do ask it piitually, because one thing surprise that surprised me is the levelof fear and the level of lack of confidence in the future andand the level of even panic that I have found among believerswas not necessarily much different from ownbelievers, and that was shuckingsurprise to me. I don't know how you play our in the US, but I listen Centothe Mingo Ond, some of the Loutin countries, Theye, were people who didnot late their house for months, which was incredible,...

...being believers and knowing that God isin control and D. knowing that the end of the day, our lives have beenthetepe determined by war word and that Wul days had been countered by God. Sothat was shocking to me. The other part that has been shockin is complications. I don't think some ofthe complucation that we have seen and the variety of the complications thatwe have seen. I don't think any of US espected that, because we have not seenthem with prior corona virus, even in two thousand and ine twelve in Hav, theAradia with that outbreak that a break was much moller was like twenty Fouhundred people only, but even then, and the mentality was thirty, five percent,but the the variety of the complication with these virus central nervor systemfor ones, Cardia, compucations, long complication, skin complications areinminological complication, lonterm, complication or epsychaiatric.Complications really is a gamoof complication that we have I seen andfrom which we have learned as well. So I think that there has been a littlebit of a surprise. Have you detected differences between the two countries that you primarilyminister in be? Have you had enough experience to see culturally they'replaying out different ways, or does it seem pretty similar me an in the minican republic and andwhere the the inited states, the US yeah, I think in the dominical republic,people started to wear a mask and we're more consistent. If you will, then whatI saw here at least from the reports in the news all the time, I don't thinkthat there was so much questioning about the instruptions given by thegovernment. The minicorrepublic also have somerestriction regarding the time when you could be out and thathas that has been used throughaue year. Just now, we are almost back to NoraWerwe. We are no back there yet. So you know for many months, this business is had to close aboutfive PN and people had a couple of hours to get home, and then you wereout after that. You wouldn' go to jail, but you would be a stop and you wouldbe questioned and there were some penalty for it. If you don't have agood expanation so also, I think th t that contributed to it much better. Wehave one of the lowest letality rate in the entire region, including below theUS and Canada and and Colombia and Chile and Anagentina and pre andEcuador and Perto Rico one. We are just about one pointn, two as the Lotalitat,not thi mortality rate for the Litalatorite, which is a much betterindex, because litality is basically number of cases. Digonos versus peoplewho die motality is number of people that you estimate are infected in theentire country versus those who die. So that's much harder to calculate, but Ithink some of that is Relata lit in the menical public is related to a muchbetter control of how the population was allowed to move around during thatperiod of time. Du Sense Migell what may be coming nextfor us is there historic model that would that would suggest what whatmight be happening- and I'm thinking specifically here related to churchleaders about what they should be thinking about how they should be planning whatperspective they should be bringing here well. Regarding this CalinNineteen, I think it's going to be Colm. Just like the flu, it's going to bemanageable, but I think it's going to be with US pretty much forever.

Once we develop antoviral medicationthat will be more effective than what we have now, then I think all fearswill be gone because between the laccine and which, by the way, te Avsince that had been developer significantly better than leaxsin thathad been developed for the influenza in a good year. The flew vaccine is nomore than sixty six oll percent effective, that's a good deal, and thatyears, a thirty forty percent effective, and you have vaccines like Moderna andviser with ninety five percent affectir and thenJosen and Jonson. Sixty six percent effactor. So I think between thevaccines that have been developed, Lothe anti virals are continued to bedeveloped, will probably manage the decesonifically better, but I thinkit's going to be with us on things going to be gone unless we can developa vaccine that is almost like a hundred percent and then almost everyone asWeseiv the vaccine, because we were able to eradicate a small box from theplanet. There hasn't been a case: OA smallplox, the small pots for more thanfifty years and polio is almost eradicated. It's not quite ther yet,but there are very few regions in the world where you find polio and gues thethe effect of vaccination. So perhaps in the future,these coronar virus and others could be eradicated as well. So I think thefuture unless the virus does something Weir and we are in the sense that thevariancs that would devalor would become so different, the mutationswould be so different than then. We would be left wo her vaccints again,unless something like that happene, which we don't have an historiccalmodel for it, then I think we'll probably be okay,wegarding Cobin, but they will be other over viruses coming up in the next ten years. OrrBacteria- and that has been the nature forever ther- are always imerging newinfectol deceases theres a journal developed just to that to emergeininfection deseses. So I think we need to be prepared for e future Begoearlier you, you talked about just some of the surprise. You've had as a pastorwith people in your area. Being very scared, staying at home things like that, what else have youseen in your church and any positive ways, you've seen God at work? I onething I'll just say is: I would have expected a little bit more, maybe contrition. I just seem like in themiddle of controversy, more of like what might God be trying to do to helpus or to show us something through this, and I just haven't seen a lot ofintrospection, but maybe you've seen that in your environment, what you beenseing as a pastor. Well, I'm glad you brougt that up, because that isprecisely my perception and my disappointment. People ask me all thetime if I think this is a a judgment from God- and I always say I don't know.However, I do know that even if this is only being allowed by God, this is not a minor fin and I thinkit's the time when we should be reviealing our lives, and this onething that covid has wiveal is how superficially the world has been living.We have been under significant risk factors of other nature, more powerfulthan Covid, and the world was totally ignorant of those of those conditionsatd. We have had condition cosing more death than Covet Aine, ten of them, andthe world was not even aware or even werwy about about it and...

...and then suddenly covered Hiros, andthen everybody was his care, but certainly there hasn't been muchcontrition at all n when coviti started, I studied imletially about a week later,a new series ofpreaching. I did thirteen messages come BAC to me, thats.That was the title of the moving neof this series and the reason for it wasprecisely trying to lead the people of God to a tongue of centrition arreviewing to see where we would find there andfor us, as a church, was very significant D and productive to do that,and I think the the Ol tescament was very helpful in doing that. Looking atthe situations of national situations with the people of Israel and how theyreacted and what God was saying not necessarily saying this is the samesituation. This is equaled to that. However, I think, since we're dealingwith eternnal truth trying to discover how those truth that they were livingunder would apply today to us as a church. So I'm afraid that, because of what yousaid, ther hasn't been enough repentance within the people of Godthat we will see more over this in the future. Trying to do God trying to do the same thing. Youknow theyre. I said right after the pandemic began and the first Sundaywhen we were close, we were close only for about four weeks and in terms ofthe churches and sent to the MINGO. That was officially so on that firstSunday. I said this is the most difficult surmon that I think I hadpreached in my life or that I will preach it. This was a the beginning andthe reason, as I said, because I need to do two things at the same time. Theyare, and two different extreme or pause won is I need to encourage you in themiddle way global situation and at the same time Ineed to call you to repentance and and to combine those two things in onecermn was was hard, but it was done and I think people reacted very well. Isaw people crying in our church at time and I think that produce good fruit.However, in general, I'm with you Colin, I don't think we haven't seen enough ofthis, and is I don't I'm going to be careful to say this,but in part I think the part of the the responsibility is on the leadershipand the REO. I'm saying that is because we are too quick toencourage people. It's, like you know your father, your mother, yourwife Die Yeah Yeah, but it's koed going and you know God will be with you and Godwill encourage you on God. Wet Sustain. All of that is true, but if I don't do more than that, and Idon't bring the people to Bethron to reveal their lives, then a missingsomething that God is trying to to do as well. So that's why I said what Isaid, and I know that probably that's not want to be liked by a lot of people,but I think it's true. I Gal it's been really helpful. I want to connect theDOS because you've been helping this think through covid and your expertiseas a medical doctor, but at some point you felt a call to leave what was apretty successful comfortable position for you and your wife in the states andto return back to the Dominican Republic so give a little bit of yourbiography from the Dr but your time in Americaand then moving out of practicing medicine full time to being a pastor.How did that happen?...

Well, I graduated from from the university in my country inSento Deningo in Ne Thousand Nine hundred and Eigy, and I was hired bythe the university mediaty to teache O r basic sciences. S I stay. There F onethousand nine hundd and eight from March, one thousand nine hundred andeighty until Ay, one thousand nine hundred and eighty two when I left thecountry marry to my wife Kathy. We got married in Octor, one thousand ninehundred and eighty one and came to the US to do. Cathin have one year to go of studying, and then I was going to do myspecialties. I did three years of internal medicine in New Jersey at Tin,yowed hospital affiliated at that time with conel today with Monsinai, and once I finish, I went toNew York to do to the two years: F, infectual deseases within New York,menical college and then, when I finish, those five years of trainind, I cameback to to Anga woith hospital in Jersey to practice medicine and also asan assistant clinical professor for the for the faculty, and I stay Theretil,one thousand nine hundred and y seven practicing medicine and teachingmedicine as as well so, a year after being theyar less than ayear, I had a brother who was a pilot. He crashed in our North Adams and asAchusett he was, it was apisit for Ejit Lear jet andthere was a snowing storm trashed and die. He was only forty. Twoat the time was on the only evangelical believer in our family and that shookus up emotionally quite a bit and we were incent to the Mingo on vacationwhen that took place, and I decided an when I would when I was back in the US, I wouldstart reading the Bible and reading the history of Christanity to find out. You know all of these differentdereminations and groups where they came o. You were not really anevangelical Christian. At that point I was not. I was I was in an any church. My fatherdied when I was eleven and a half. My father was the believer within theCatholic Church and taught me to read the Bible. TALD ME TO TRY TO CHRIST.Only told me to believe. Basically what the Bywell said, regardless of a theteaching of the Cate Y Church was, but I, when my father died, I did notremain within the church precisely because what he? What he had told me,but tod me so at that time I began to read the Bibleand I began to read. You may know the book, it's a two volume book of HitorChristianary by Latoret from ell university, and then I went out and tried to find achurch that wuld teach what I had found in the Bible and I found a church andinitially they had a bookstore. So we went there for months but books, redbooks. Then I decided to to ask one day what kind of church they were. Theywere an independent Bible Church. We when they are, I stay there for a whilea they. We moved and then enjoine an even Te. Ocal Free Church became anelder theyare at some point and as the time was going by, I was developinghunger for the word started to get involvein ministry, develop a Biblestudy for aid passions in my own office with Kathy and got involved with a small group onFriday night from the church. disomission work at the Cande doctorfor Amissionar Oganization called Hiba, which was a an organization workingwith high school students. Ein, Japan andRussia and the US, and through that I just developed a passion to teach theworld and then in the king and point when I couldn't...

...had enough of the word and be teachingo the word, and I wanted to go into ministry and even leave medicine behindhe. God was necessariy, so that was the beginning of TAT transition. And sowhat year did you move back to Santa Demingo? One thousand nine hundred and N Netyseven, my first impulse to live medicine anddo mini shes N, one thousand nine hundred and Ninehty two Kathy wasn'tready for it. Two years late, Ne Thousand Nine hundred and ninety four.She spoke to me and Livein a lot of details out for the SEC of time. Buttwo years later she spoke to me about doing meticine a doing ministry. I saywell. The problem now is that if I do that, I would like to do it in someTotomingo. To my surprise, he was in agreement. Then it took US three moreyears to sell the House that we were living in, sell te practice mover intomy office because she was with a different group. I was by myself moverinto my office hellde practice to the hospital together and sell the house,and then three years later we went to Santalnigo ninety seven man. Ninetyseven January, Ninety eight we plane to the church. I was a Bible Study of tentwelve fourteen people and Theygrove to about twenty ive hundred people inSunday. Mornin praise the Lord to tell us a little bit about DominicanRepublic. Probably I mean our listeners have all heard of it. Probably most ofthem haven't been there sefore we'll get to the spiritual side, butjust what's it like culturally. Economically, it's probably changed alot in the twenty plush years that you've shit there. What would we findif we landed in he, Dr Today? Besides some really good baseball players? Okayor for those who do knot know anything about Deminian Republic? Is the easternpart of the island. Li Spaniola and the other side is a Hidi. It was colonizedby Spain. We were, we became independent, onethousand nine hundred ND forty four from I pan. However, we had been on the Asian dimination for twenty two yearsfrom twenty. Now, let me let me go back eighteen, twenty two up to eht o e TDeighteen, twenty two: we were under Spain, Eighteen, twenty two twoeighteen, forty four. We were on the domination from Haili and then webecame independent from hairy in one Thousan, eight Hendren and forty four.Then back then again in eighteen, sixty three, we went back to Spain as acolony and N on thousand eight hundred and sixty five. We became independentfrom Spain. Finally, and to this day it's a democracy. We had a dictatorship, fom one thousandnine hundred and thirty to one thousand nine hundred and sixty one a lot ofonrest during houed a sixty five. We had an invetion from the US for a yearand then the the US left and sixty six to this point. The situation has been aLott, more stable. The economy has grown, the middle class has grown in size aswell as it economically economicallythat has maybecountry Mor table. Obviously, is developing a great deal. A lot ofbad impulse has come from tourism, that is the main source of income forthe dollar, especially for the country, aletter of tourism and te North, the east now the West as well Somon thesouth. So if you go now, you'll find Thi City Sen to the Minga, welldeveloped, Guda, Mouno, there's McDonald'sispainps! Well, the fould change be so... can get some authentic Latin cisineTaco bell a very good King Unid on these. They are Pitza hard and senting.With your stores, you know all kinds of American stores and teansare theyare as well so and talk about the really fascinated in this and we'regoing to transition out talk about Church and theology, because I've heardyou say, and I've heard Wan Sanchez or mutual friends say it before that thethe reformation, which grew up out of European soil- and we can look luthersfrom Germany Calvin- is Swiss or French. And, of course, we know a lot about thehistory in the British isles and the Netherlands and there's reformers andBohemia and Poland, so there's all across Europe to the north, to the east,even some small things among Catholic places, an in Italy but the reformation,it seems didn't ever really take root in Spain. Is that correct? Well, therewas some reformation moving in Spain without a doubt, but it was not likethe rest of Yeur Europe yeah the Cathlal Church, remaining control of the Spain and and thecendting for the restof Tlat. In America I was colonized, mainly valu pain, including even Braci,so he control in Latin America by the Catholic Church was quite severe.Inquisition was present there until eighteen, twenty and there were threemain areas: were they the functionar search, and there was Mexico. They haddifferent names at the time, but it was Mexico, Columbia called the GrandColumbia the time and then Peru. So with that control, it was almostimpossible for the reformation to get there or at least to develop as as such.So if you ask me, Thethe Evangelical Movement didn'tbegin until one thousannine hndren and sixty the church. Planting movementprobably did not start untia late on thed a S, and that was no reformation.Theology. If you ask me the nelling of the what the nelling of the thesis walls in Germany with Martin Luther Ntwo thousand and ten edvent with JohnPiper was to Latin America. That's an event that was organized by our churchis called PORSUNCAUSAP for his cause. We do it every year, Jom pipper Kan,and we did it with the intention that from that event, perhaps somethingwould spread. Something would happen and literally that's the way ithappened. People came from Chile, Agentina Bolivia, Pro Ocador, Columbiaof Cuba, Hate Puerto Rico and ers even and then they went back and theystudied they ar newthurges, but they also started new conferences, a smallerthan the one we were holding, and yet they have continued to do that. Andthen the Internet, where the Printing Presse was to mitoluther reformation,is where the Internet has been to this very new fresh young, immature stelmovement is in Lotin America and I think that's important that for uspeople for you to know, because you may judge what's happening like in Americaas if we would have had two hundred years of history. Ovefon theology nowoerform theology is much younger, ind, Latin America and yet its spreadingvery fast due to the to the Internet is amazing. What is happening? Books arebeing reatain by Hispanic, altos books,...

Har being translated podcasts to your programs, conferences, all kinds of thingshappening, so ned working, there's a lot ofnetworking at the same time and by Gosrase, and by he's doing, we havebeen in the middle of Allabad and I has been enjoyed to see it. Yea that'swonderfully encouraging and what are are there? I mean there are obstacles,there's always obstacles, but humanly speaking, what are some of the biggestobstacles? Do People feel like this is from America, or thisis from northern Europe or aren't you don'thave those same sorts of obstacles? What what is it that would preventsomeone from wanting to give the reform faith a hearing in the Spanish speakingworld? Well, I don't think it would be the kinds of things that do yousmention because there's a lot that is happening within that right, te Lautincountries, but I think I is the culture the culturehas been so used to Emotians and so used to, and so not not used torational thinking and logical thinking and refurn theology. It is verylogically, is rational, and that is not necessarily what people were had beenused to. So when I went down back on thousand nine hundred and y seven, agood number of people expresed that the kind of sermons that I was doing wasnot necessarily their taste, and yet I think he, if you went to do itdifferently now they will say no wite, the one, those serens that we were usedto, but even the singing when I was there when I, when I got ther ar forthe first, I don't know how many years, but for a good number of years thesongs were very in some sense. Superficial, in another sense, theywere neses, not necessarily antibiblical, but they were veryemotional, some of them even Sounde, like romantic songs composed to God.Basically, you could have changed the name of God and Pud Iou Wifa and Iwould have fit. That's not what you see now in any ofthe churches. We have been blessed B by the Lord inmany ways, and one of those is that working with Bob cofling that you knowand some of the people we were able to renew the worship of Ouer church andfrom they are many othe churches have been in Frent, so that now, when Itravel a lot of these songs that I hear are songs that either were composed bythe Soterin grace movement or composed by people in our church. o Songs arevery similar that we seng we seen in our church Sunday after Sunday, so guysbeen good even in Cuba. You know you they don't. They are not as open to theoutside war and yeah. When I go there, I hear the same song, so that is good to see to hear to worshipat a deeper level. So I think that was one of the mainobstacles. Initially, I don't think that' so much they are any longer,except for were prosperity. Caus police cool, I think, were sparing caus forlast a lot of ground and now wi e pandemic design. If wonder, wonderousMovementn lost a lot of strength, which is pared, and I think God is doing gainMide the signs and wonders couldn't take care of the bandemic. Absolutelythat's! That's what that almost like disappear from yeah for one day to theother, which is good so talk about books a little bit. What had been someof the influential books in this new reformation awakening either for youpersonally or books that have been really meaningful in your church, andthese could be books by...

Spanish authors, maybe we haven't heardof, but what are some of the ones that are really helping the Gospel workthere. Well, you know when one of the goodthings that that took place was that Therry Alion, we had the five hundred anniversary ofthe reformation, so you may recall some of the books that were published atthat time and trying to remember some of the titles, but a lot of those books.When they were publishing English new books, then they were probably almostat the same time in Spanish and consequently, people were started to read them at thetime and and some of them initially were simple books now very extensive an then some people started to read embooks by Covin and luter later on, but initially I think we're books thatworked in some sense new and they were coming out with the five hundredaniversary we did. We did two different things. I Polish a book call doctrine or teaching that transformedthe world and there was thefive solars and the five points of calvinisn mixtogether that I think that worked very well, andpeople received those receive the book very well and it was- and I think I hada lot of circulation very quickly, especiallybecause coinsidey with five hundred and ves Su relever formatonwas part PAI ton.That way- and I did a project of ninety five pieces for the Evangelical Churchand this they were not written. They were ninety five videos of three minutes andYo. Remember you doing it and each Medeo was a tesis and then becameapublication as well and believe it or not. Some of those videos have over ahundred thousand two hundred thousand views, and I think, just two days agosomeone wrote to me and said that it was one pesis that changes life af hismenste and, I think, that's still pain off, and that was also important and significant at the time.I think one thing that helped was the fact that initiall there was a lot ofrejection and now thinking about another obstacle. Thinking about the question that youask me that reform Theoli encounter is that, as you know, young people tend tobe proud when they encounter reform theology. So now they were teaching the senthen, butin the proway in t e Condescende way, and that wasn't helpful. So one of the things that we needed todeal with was, if you're going to do this, then you have to teach in in ahumble way. U Remember that you did not believe this doctrine. This is notsomething that that you were born with and you grew up with. So God was facing with you. You need tobe patient with with people, so I think over time that has been conquered TOA,great, a great degree and but that came tomine Ida want to live it out and the fact that we still need to teach thattheology in Holorway and secondly, if you Yo steach that new reformation theology in a waythat is here. This is the Te right doctrine. This is what you need tobelieve. I think you'll find a lot of resistance. I think if you're going toteach reforn theology- and I think that's true for any place and to peoplewho never heard it, then the best thing to do it is just treative from theBible. Finally, the Tex and where that doctrine is and then just doexposition of preaching and so that people could see that before thereformation, this theology was already there and th. The only thing that thereformance did was to discover that...

...theology I did that Incuba I went toSantiago in Cuva and I went to an Armenian seminary and they asked methey gave me one afternoon. I was stating from Unday through Friday fromeigh thirty to Fourh ity every day and then on Thursday they said We'e goingto give you the afternoon to teach reform theology. So you Tou do anythingyou want that afternoon and what I said at the beginning was look. I Col a John Six. Well, I did not even dothat but ot, but I did USI. I diou Sa John Sex is just probably the mostprodestinating for this Conerian chapter in the all bibles you know, butwhat I said to them. Andeed I had the whole day. I remember that nother holeafthin on tyeur hold dey so early on. I said you know I'm not here to convinceanyone, because I don't have that power if they always if someone lives hereconvines this afternoon, just make sure that it wasn'n me it takes the HolySpirit to convinces at thes number one. So I don't have that expectation.Number two, I'm not even aiming an that. The only thing want to do is to showyou without theology is, and I'm going to do it in a different way. I said I'mgoing to ask one question at the time: through the entire day, then we'regoing to find three for five passages that will answer the cotion and then,at the end of that, I'm going to ask you to teach me what you think. Thosepassages that we read are saying so we to, for example, is the will free, yesor not. Then I said before you answer: Let jus go through this passus and thenwe took something like Second Timatin Chapter Two, twenty five and twenty sixwere polise telling temothy to deal gently with those who oppose you incase God, grant en for Defne with repentance to to fret them from the ifget in English. Hew Goes, but you mayremember to free them from Beng there esnared by the devil, exactly yeah, whohas them a snared to do his will so tell me what you think the passage issaying Ye H. can you spring yourself out of the tram and that's right? Idon't sound like it and then we went through passages like who the soungsays. Free is foryo indeed. So what happened before this song says you freeRoman Tates, seven, that man kind of please God need the mind, sets on theflesh cind of please Gorde. Neither can no do so. So that's inability, ther isthere and then at the end of the ear. Today I say: Okay, now is the KNA anyquestions and there were no questions because they have been so so convictedby the words. So I think that represents an advancement of ING,Reformation Movement. That's great! Let me ask Ho more question than we'll seeif what comlon justin have but you're very familiar with the states- and you lived here in thestates so really interested from your perspective.Are The issues facing your church? What seemd to be the sort of issues youthink we're facing here or give us give us sort of n insider outsidersperspective on what you see the state of the church in the United States,because it's often said you don't really know one culture until you knowtwo cultures, Youcan sort of step out, and so you really know both cultures really. Well. Whatwould you say to the American church what we need to hear strings forweaknesses, good or bed?...

Well, let me see where I should start Yolook Dif. You look ata lot in America, eleme star with out in America yeah. The problem with LatinAmerica has been that the wor view of the kind of the continent hat hadbeen primaraly animystic, so pentecostof theology was fet by theanimistic whirlwiew behind okay. So let me live that there for a while, whenyou look at North America and Europe mothernisson impacted the church a significantly, soit became drainy cerebral and I think that has affected the church. If you goback even before all of these issues that were dealing with now and that'swhere liberal theology came in, I think he's theology that in some sense, whilebecoming very academic at the same time, was divorcing from God. So we teach that God is in charge ofeverything and God is the one leading and doing. But then, when we dotheology onm sorry, when we do church, we do charch dependent upon us ourrwisdom and Aword understanding, pragmatis an methodology. So we go tothe pulpit not saying like Martino Jones. I believe in the Holy Spirit, Ibelieve in H, Allis Pero, I believe in the Holy Spirit, but in some sense evenI we don't say it. I think we go to the Pope Saing, I believe in Hamoneutics. Ibelieve in sites is, I believe, in Te Owak Il delite in the Hebrew and thenGod says when then just do it. If that's what you need it, that's whatyou think you you need it. So one weakness, even before we get to thecurron issues, is that even though in good churches we say we are notanthropocentric like the Amenians are ut. The end of the day is stillInterpreento antoproparcentric. I'm sorry about that and my my accent inSpanish O, it's hard for us for us to say: That's whaw. We don't say it. Wejust n man centered. So I think the church in America needsmore for the presence of God, more dependence upon Ghad, more dependenceupon the Holy Spirit. I mean you look at the life of Christ. I mean he's livedependent upon the holy spray from beginning to end. He he was born of thehollys spirit. Then he dies and he was nine fourteen. I believe says that heofferd himself by the eternal spirit that that is at the end of his life. Hegoes to desesser pushed by the holly spirit. He used the word inspired bythe Holo Spirit. He spelled demons in the powerly Holly Spirit, he dies andresurrects by the power of the ofe spirit whet. Do we miss it? Whet theMite miss the point, th the Powerlhy Holy Spirit?If you couldn't do it without it, how they are us to try even to attempt todo it, so I think that's one weakness that is older than we want to believeand proceed the time that we live in in now, and I think we need more moreinjection of that. Secondly, I think we need pastors inthe pulpit who preach not just preachers we need pastors, because at the end ofthe day the church is about people it's about ministering to people and whencryis summarized live, he did it in two commandments. One is you love God, theother one? Is You love the neighbor and the neighbor, as you know, iiseveryone when o imagine now when it...

...comes to the sheep, how much love we should have for thesheep? So my sermon should be exxygaticallycorrect, but it's not aiming at the exigesis,the Saming at the heart of the people on front of me. Weu need to be fet andI need to be burdened with with their needs and their sorrows undeir their sadness and their sense. Eventhere's sin. She sat sad in me. Paul said whois. As you know, polcess who,who who is sening whowho, makes someonesying that I'm not birning and worry about him. So we need passors in thepulpit who preach who preach the word and not a mere preacher, becausesometimes we think that pastoral ministery is about preaching and isthere's a lot more than preaching in Pasora manager. So we need that ternly. I think we need less pragmatisnin the churches. Wely we need to plan, but church is notabout task and planning is about people. So we need to plan to Minister topeople not to use people to get our plans and task done. So that's another.We can say and then now the issues of today, which are large and heavypowerful, is you know, gender ideology and same sex, marriageand then politics, my goodness, we saw we read from a for. We felt thatpeople even get involved in Sento the Mingoto into that holy ticken that tookplace, and that was hard, but I think, but that reveal was his status in thechurch, te Weale status of the hard tote people EC wellwhat. I really loveabout your answer. Migell I's all those things that that you mentioned t the ENgender and politics and the rest are really important. Ind. Those are theones that are most obvious and they need to be addressed, but I'm guessingthat for most pastors out there, American pastors people who whaldlisten to this, who are well trained and love Jesus and love the Bible Yeah.We need to be warned against those things, but what you said at thebeginning is so true: it's are we preaching to the hearts of our people.Are we relying on the power of the Holy Spirit? Those are the things that are probablyin rank and file, evangelical churches and pastors. Like me, those are thethings that we can forget and those are the things we can be an expert on allof the most volatile cultural issues of the day. But when a man has to stepinto the pulpit, is he going to preach the Cross of Christ, which I know is, is your heartbeat and it's it's soevident in your preaching always to direct people to the cross? Is it goingto be in the power of the spirit, or is it going to be based on our ownmancentered power and pragmatism? And then you know we want to have great exadJesus. We want to be well trained, but are we preaching not just a technicallycorrect sermon? We all who went to seminary can think of the sort ofsermons, and sometimes even our professors gave us that here's, thetechnically proficient way to do a message and you got it right and youdid your transitions right, but there's there's no power. There's no unction,there's no preaching it's an artifact of delivery and it's not preaching tothe hearts of people. So yes, N and amen to that. Let me you've been so gracious give usyour time. Let Me Circle back here. One last topic of supreme importance. Colinand Justin. Did you take spansh when... were in high school or College? Yes, I did Justin see see Agai. What iswhat is most hilarious to you when Americans try to speak Spanish, I don't know if the worriis hilarious,because embarrassing, no, no! No, it's not embarrassint. I really love thefact that you are more daring that our people areand trying to speak the language to whatewer degree. Maybe even a wordofpos, I think we're a lot more timid and consequently, when an Americandecides to learn Spanish, I think you find him a speaking. Some of that or alot of that, a lot faster than what latins do when it comes to speaking English,because Ir very ship is very tinid about making a mistake and when I saythat you are more Daling, are you mean in the bad way? I mention the gread way.Yesterday you read something in a Spanish on the pull pillthe end ofintegry. That is a Biglia which is not necessarily, and it's TA thing topronounce, but you try. You do the right, and now I think, like in Americans will beso shy. They would not even try to say it, so I don't think his Hilarious, Ithink, is going on this kind. I think it's commandable and as well it a comedian that some of US listen toBrian Regan has a bit about. You know the things that he learned in highschool. Spanish aren't the things that really help him talk to native Spanishspeakers sometimes- and I think we we are experts on the colors oncounting toone hundred. Those are the things I always joke with our Spanish speakinginterence. Here I had to listen in high school to these tapes and you'd watchthese little pictures and you'd hear this speaker and would say elperodse,Ga andhd. Why wo and that's the extent of my Spanishyeah Welli know a little bit more, but not much more than that. Some othertime I'll, regale you with Aribrikito. No, that's the one thing the SpanishChristmas Carol, Ati Buriqito has stuck in my head, so I I was taught DundestylBano, which I think will comeof o Andi. Wherever I go and Spini I that'simportant. That's very importaaebegll! Thank you! So much for your wisdom foryour insight and your humility. We're not here to give you a big head, butyou know if our listeners could see the work in the leadership that you'reexercising not just in the Dominican Republic, but really throughout theSpanish speaking world in Latin America. It really is immense, and it's for goodby God's grace and glory. So may God give you good heart, good head, you and yourlovely wife lots of good health for years to come, because we're reallygrateful to see the work and we have lots to learn from you, dear brother,so thank you for being with us. Well, thank you Kevin and Colin and Justin and part of my my axen. You knowI used to speak English every single day on my life at's, very good, reallyit is, but I'm not doing that anymore, so I'm just trying to refresh Ur what Ilearned so but think obout the opportunity to preach a you popatorwith your people. The hospitality was great and I made me feel at home veryquickly. I had a good time with the interms as well, then, were l verygrateful to have you and love to talk to you anytime and your accents muchbetter than college, so grateful for.

Thank you. Thank you, brother and thankyou all for Anki. Thank you. God enjoy him forever. Nd read a goodBok.

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