Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode · 8 months ago

Tim Keller on Reformed Resurgence

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Timothy Keller, the founding pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan, is the special guest for this conversation. Along with Collin, Justin, and Kevin, Tim Keller discusses the Reformed movement itself, The Gospel Coalition, and what comes next in Evangelicalism. Along the way you’ll hear advice for evangelizing, warnings about Christian celebrity, and of course book recommendations for pastors and leaders. 

Life and Books and Everything is sponsored by Crossway, publisher of the Short
Studies in Systematic Theology Series, edited by Graham A. Cole and Oren R. Martin. 

The Short Studies in Systematic Theology Series is designed to equip the church to faithfully understand, love, teach, and apply what God has revealed in Scripture about a variety of theological topics. The series gives valuable advice on applying spiritual gifts in the preaching and evangelism ministry. 

For 30% off this book and all other books and Bibles at Crossway, sign up for a free Crossway+ account at crossway.org/LBE. 

Timestamps: 

Promoting, Celebrating, & Articulating Systematic Theology [0:00 – 1:30] 

Tim Keller Fighting Sin Not Cancer [1:30 – 17:03] 

Top Book Recommendations for Forming Pastors and Leaders [17:03 – 21:37] 

Tim Keller’s Other Spiritual Gifts [21:37 – 27:13] 

British Evangelicalism [27:13 – 34:20] 

Reading at a Rural Church; Eating in a Big City [34:20 – 39:41] 

Reformed Resurgence: The Young, Restless, & Reformed Movement [39:41 – 51:06] 

Evangelical Celebrities [51:06 – 54:33] 

How to Define Evangelicalism: Models vs. Institutions [54:33 – 1:00:34] 

More About the Pastor Celebrity Experience [1:00:34 – 1:10:20] 

Post-Movement Evangelistic Strategies [1:10:20 – 1:12:25] 

Encouragement [1:12:25 – 1:15:20] 

Books and Everything: 

Dynamics of Spiritual Life, by Richard F. Lovelace 

Evangelism Through the Local Church, by Michael Green 

Evangelism in the Early Church, by Michael Green 

Between Faith and Criticism, by Mark Noll 

Reformed Resurgence: The New Calvinist Movement and the Battle Over American Evangelicalism, by Brad Vermurlen  

Its FO latings and salutations welcome back tolife and books and everything inm, Kevin, diyong and you're, not Joi'mKevin and I'm joined with Justin and Colin, and we have a special guest. Iknow all of our guests are special, but we do have a great guest with us andI'llintroduce him in just a moment. First, I want to think again crosswayfor sponsoring life and books and everything when ahighlight their short studies and systemetic theology series seriesedited by Graham Coland Orin Martin crossway. I love this about crossway and not thesame as because justins here, but they have taken such an interest inpromoting celebrating articulating systematic theology. You see this fromthe ESV Study Bible to a lot of Standalome monographs that they'vepublished to larger whole systemenic theologies, and then this short seriesis great. We had Scott Swain on a couple months ago to talk about hisbook on the Trinity. Grahm Col has one on fatal theology, the new one I justgot. I know Justin's reading it through as well Gerald Braye's attributes ofGod and there are more coming in the months ahead. So that is a very goodseries. Thank you to crossway our guest. Today is the reverend doctor, Mister friend, TimKeller Tim. We are so glad to have you on the show Tim probably needs littleintroduction was the pastor for many years of Redeemer Presbyterian Churchin New York City and some such title still for Redeemer Cityto city or some Grand Puba of sorts and author ofmany many influential excellent books, stealing with apologetics preachingprayer, the Psalms I'm sure most everyone listening has read one ofTim's books or Tim and Kathy's books and Tim has also been a friend to eachof us and has been instrumental in the Gospel coalition and many many otherpursuits Tim. Thank you for joining us. It's great to be with friends, it'sgreat to be here, okay, so we're going to talk about a couple of differentthings, but I'm sorry I have to ask an obligatory question, but we ask youbecause we do care about you and lots of people are praying for you. How are you, how are the cancertreatments going? How can we be praying we're so encouraged to have you here?Let me just say: Tha, all all your listeners have a chronic illness. Youknow that when you have a chronic illness, on the one hand you would beso upset if people never asked you about it and on the other hand, it's sotedious to be constantly asked about it, but so I would just say those of I youwho are listening with chronic illness es just put up with it. People aregoing to ask you about it and do it, because the alternative is a lot worsewhere people, I think, the people care so much, and I get asked a lot about it.The cancer treatments the first six months went unusually well, that'senough to say: pancraded cancer is about as bad. You know one of the twohardest to treat very lethal and you know so, I'm still not sure it hasn't been eradicated and andactually with pancretic cancer. By the way, even if would become nonvisible,nobody would really believe it's gone. Nevertheless, the first six months werereally great. Unusually good. It's put me in a position where I have a lotmore energy, I'm doing pretty well, but I'm going to. I still have to havecinancial treaments every two weeks indefinitely and the Khemo is, you know, crates, fatigue and a lot of otherthings, so I'm actually doing pretty well, especially certain times in mytwo week cycle like now, because my next chemeop is in on is two days fromnow. So, the last few days before I have the Chemo I'm pretty much, I feeltutterly normal. So I wanted to give you normal Sey. So Iput I put this when Collin I talked about doing this. We I just I justchose a week that I knew wofd be okay, so I prayers are huge and, frankly everything we prayed for six months ago. We said: Oh Lord, don'tlet this be cancer and the answer was it is ever since then: We've gotten everyperversually everything we've asked for we've gotten I mean the Lord is he'schosen, the path for us and we're walking it and very grateful forwhatever pathy gives us. So I heard you say something toim on another call. Wewere on maybe you've said it publicly,...

...but if I heard you correctly, I hope Idid because I've repeated it. It really stuck with me. You said something like we're: Not Fighting, I'm not fightingcancer. What did you mean by that when I'm inI'm fighting my sin, yeah? Well, the you? If it wasn't for my sin, I would becompletely resting in Christ and I would and and the resurrectionand would be expiritually real to me and I would be fine, aftully find,spiritually and emotionally in every way and the fears, an anxiety and thesadness and the grief, and all that mean to some Greek Jesus was a man ofsorrows and therefore the fact that want either Kathy or I after all theseyears will almost certainly one or the other Vus is going to see the one dieand spend some years here, probably without the other one. That is the onegrief that's worth crying about. They really is, I think God would say that'sright. I think if Jesus was next to me, he'd cry to because he cries it thatsif thanks. But the point is it's. My Sin that keeps me from from thespiritual realities t at would just boi me up and therefore the way you handle.I think the way I handle imminent death is by fighting my sinand and and getting deeper comuning with God. That's certainly how JohnOwen did it, as you know that that Great Tis, you know his meditations anddiscourse on the glory of Christ. The last thing he wrote, which is, I think,luminous and wonderful. That was basically what he that's, how he wasdealing with his imminent death and that's what I'm trying to do to,because I'm not I'm not writing that book. It's already been written so yeahI mean, if that's helpful, to people, that's really it I mean, I guess say one other thing Kathy and Iwould really be rich if every time somebody said you're battling cancer,we saw somebody Tim Keller's, battleing cancer. I don't know why that's thethat's the term, but we always feel like yeah. Of course I mean we know what youmean. I don't ant to be a knitpicker on that. But the point is: that's actuallynot the fight. It really isn't because you know I'mseventy years old, so I'm going to die o something not decades away butprobably years away. So the thing I have to do is fight my sinso that I'm actually ready. I have a lot more to say about that, but I don'tthink that's the subject of our podcast well, but it's very helpful, and sothank you for letting us ask about that and those little they're not throw awaycomments, at least not for the rest of us. It's stuck with me when I heard yousay that and it also stook with Mahege. You say something about your Youv.Finally, you know Cathy said you should have just been living in the Gospel allthese years to have the courage to say no to everything, but now you now youhave the you have the altimate car. You can really say: No, have you felt likeit's? It's focused, I mean hasn't, focused you so much that you didn't sayNoto Collin to come on here, but besides that, as it focused you and wow,I I need to be doing certain things Iwasn't doing or I need to say no to more things. I had a hard time sayingno to yeah the very first day after I knew it was cancer. I sat down with eJournal and had about as much of a pennicostleexperiencees of Presbyterian can which isn't much, butthe two words that came to me were your sanctification and focus thtthe. Both of them are going to beput on steroids. It not, and I do get steroids. Ond Tecome off of them every two weeks. That's a huge big problem, but the factis he real thing. The Star my paerlyzes been put on steroids, myscientification, because you can't get through the day or the week withoutGod's reality and on the other hand, my focus has been put on steroids. Ani Amsaying well what what? If I have a year, if IAVE two years, if I have threeyears, even if it five years, which would be a great thing- you know if you Bak beat it back thatfar. What do I need to get done so yeah, absolutely and so being here is thefirst failure of focus. I've had T it's Imyo or diagnosis, but apart from thatmake I be one more thing, because I do think this is probably fruitful forpeople. John Newton says one of the biggest thing he battled with isinordinate attachment to the things of time inordinate attachment to the things oftime, not bad for a guy never went to college by the right and we realize cathine. I realized thatthat this, the cancer thing is really shakenus. She tends to attach her heart and get deep reast from places we've gone, so we've got a placeat South Carolina Beach. We've got a place in England, we have off Han goneto and she just lives for going to those places, partly because over theyears it was when I wasn't you know, consumed with work, also theirbeautiful places. On the other hand, I always found I was always I rested infrankly ministry accomplishments,...

...ministry goals, hey we've done this, wegot this started, we moved to that and we realized in many ways we wereresting. Our hearts in these things, in other words the other night. We said wereally try to turn this world into heaven. We were trying to make a heaven out ofout of the earth and as a result of that, we were always unhappy becauseyou can't stay in England, you have to come home, you can't stay in SouthCarolina, I mean, and these things and sometimes places that we always went toget sold or something else, and then we can't go back to them. Meanwhile, my Iwas never enjoying my day because I was always thinking about tomorrow and allthe stuff. I have to get done n Hou behind and what's happened with, thecancer is suddenly we said I've got a, I can't we can't make. I haven't hout of this earth becauseit's going to be taken away from us and it just jolts you so much. You sayI've got to make heaven my heaven and God by Heaven and her's. What's really weird, whenyou actually make Heaven Heaven, the joys of the Earth are more poignantthan they used to be that's. What's so strange, we enjoy our day more than weever did we look out on water here, the East River F. So, for example, and we've gotthere's a whole lot of things that we never really enjoyed that muchbecause we are too the more we make heaven into the realheaven. The more this world become something we actually are enjoying forits own sake, instead of trying to make it give us more than it really can. So,oddly enough- and this sounds very- I know this sounds pitistic, it's justnot at all. I mean it's hard. One, we've never been happier day today. We've never enjoyed our dayswere: we've never enjoyed hugs more we've never enjoyed food, more oays, we, you know she'll, say whatthis would be great to make. We've never enjoyed walksmor we've neverenjoyed the actual things. We see touch taste here and smell around us more.It's almost like why? What was the matter with us and the answer? Is Wegot our hearts off of those things so weirdly enough? We enjoy the more so the things of earth have not becomestrangely dim, as the hymwriter says. Yeah well see,but we know what that means, but you're saying thetheres, there's an acutenessnow to the enjoyment of these earthly things. In light of Heaven Right and bythe way in in Calvin's little book of the Christian Life, I it's anits aremarkable spot where he says that we actually don't believe we're going todie. It's whert. He says he says when youactually see a dead body, you can philosophie about the brevity of life,but then you go off as if you're going to live in perpetuity. He actually saysthat we all are absolutely sure of our perpetuity, but then he says he says:We've got to stop loving the things of the Earth set our hearts on heaven.I've been reading this lately, but then he turns right around An said, but thatdoesn't mean that we've got to get become this aesthetic thing that that you don't Dusyou despise it. Youhave to love it. This is a gift, so he does his reform calvinis thing thatthis world is a great thing and the create the creation is good and we'renot being played honist. That think of the world is being bad, so he has thesame kind of interesting back and forth. Rhe says: You've got to stop lovingthis world so much and then immediately turns around Soi that we have toappreciate it and praise God for it every day, as we partake of it and that dialectic which I guess I wasnever really exestentially experiencing, it's very powerful right now. Thisisn't what you actually ask me. Oh, it's really encouraging it's reallyencouraging. If you can go back to him with yourbook on suffering, would you would you write anything differently? Would youadd a chapter if the Lord gave another five years? Oh Yeah, you could other words point is.I could there's something not the principles but bay, but what I could dois, I could probably be a little more. I mean the book on suffering. All my books basically are sermons. I don't mean that they were just takingmy sermons and putting them into print exactly what I mean is they're, basedon sermons on suffering just like and as a result, sermons are neversermons are always kind of fairly general they're, not like pastoral letters,which are much more little more detailed and a little morespecific, and I think if I was going to write on suffering and by the way rightnow, I am trying to write an article on our experiences, I'm not quite surewhere it's going to go, but it's just a little more. It's SOM more boots on the ground, justind, it's a little more. You know like one of the things Idiscovered was just because I believe in an afterlife, a crisis like ImmanaDath doesn't operationalize it so that that whole Johnthan Edwardsthing about it's one thing to know: honey sweite, but it something to tasteit. It's one thing to know: Hi's E...

...resurrection is other thing to actuallybe comforted by it, and that doesn't automatically a mean one of the mainthings is: When there's a crisis, it doesn't automatically go intooperational mode. You have to operationalize it through the ordinarymeans of grace actually, but you have to operationalize it. I don't thinkthat's the sort of thing I probably say anywhere in the book on suffering. It'sprobably because I haven't been on the this end of it S. I can get pretty specific and I'mtrying to try to journal some of those things. So as you get as this isfocusing you do you have a book or to that you're thinking, asthe Lord gives life and breath, and months and years Tim Keller wants towrite this. Wasn't it t David Gordon, when he thought he was dying? He wrotewhy Johnny can't preach and sort of he thought that was his last word to theworld is Y, a preaching's terrible. Do you have something like that? I don'thave a new book that I want to write because I've got cancer. No, I actuallyI' You guys, might find this interesting since you're. All in thebook stuff is I'm trying to I want to. I was actually contracted to write abook on forgiveness and there's two ways to go at that. One, ofcourse, is the more pastoral like people whore saying I have trouble withbitterness, but it's interesting recently, Elizabeth Brunic, you knowElizabeth She's rites for the New York Times on it. There's some place whereshe tweeted she says: We've never had a culture that that more demandedatonement without offering any prospect for forgiveness and Heras. We demandatonement and we're very moralistic, but we have we've lost any ability toforgive and so at a certain level right now. I think the whole thing offorgiveness is not just a pastoral issue, but it's actually a culturalissue, O I'm pretty excited about that book. But actually I contracted forthat book like three years ago. I'm writing it this year. After that, mostof the books in the Q are books. I wanted to write anyway Kevin I'm justlike to stay alive enough to do them, but I don't have any new. No, not no,nothing burning. I need to write about this for that. So let us ask you, but we're going totalk about a specific book in not your book but Comon Justin. Let's each of uswill limit ourselves one book question for Tim, so here's my question take out. Let's take out some obvious,no cus Lewis, let's take out who else would be obvious for Tim Keul, noMartin, Loy Jones, no Jonathan Nedwards and, let's think in particular for pastors or Christian leaders of anykind. What are a couple books by peopleliving or dead? You would say I would love to put this into your blood stream.Maybe is because it's particularly influential for you- or maybe it's morerecent than that, give a couple of really key text, informing Christianleaders and pastors well. I actually do always a fair amount of trouble with thesequestions. I don't I mean I'm not GOINGNO. Are you as mad as John Piperwas well, you know I'm! No, because I never get as mad as John Piper get Qi,never havpin. I never have the same level of emotion that John Piper has inany delery, but but I thousn't surprise me he was mad atthat I mean the real problem, of course, is that you at a certain point, even the books that were very seminalto you. If you keep on reading and reading andreading and reading you develop, you know you develop views of things that really aren'tbased on any one or two books right and those things that were seminal becomesort of second nature to you and you're like well. Of course, I should have aright right. Well, Il tell you. I would say that, interestingly, twobooks that helped me when I got to Redeem Er Thi here's the years what Idid when I got to redeemer my started here. I went back to a book. I picked up anew book. The the book I went back to was loveless Tynameis, susper, wife,okay, I mean I'm out on the Gospel colition website over and over againsaying this was a seminal book for me, but the same time, another book Ipicked up at the time was Michael Green's, evangelsm through the localchurch at Gordon Comwoi. I had read his bookof Angelsin in the ARLANTER in the Roy Church, which also by the way, I think, if that,along with his local church, the thing about the book on the local church wasa kind of a brick. It's sort of a compendium of all the kinds ofevangelist evangelistic methods, things you can do to evangelize in aparticular town or neighborhood. It was sort of mindblowing to me, and it'sstill, I think I mean it's dated, but...

...it's still actually a terrific bookbecause it just goes to show that we're not doing half or a quarter or tenth ofwhat we could be doing in any. He was just a. He was an evangelistic fool. Ionly met him once over in Oxford when I was speaking overthere, but he was just unbelievable and those two books that book just showedme. I mean we've, we, you know, there's a whole lot. We could do and it put meonto a much more. I actually wasn't all that much in an advancaltic mode as aminister or even as a person till I came to New York. That book helped meas also the fact that I had so many non Christians that showed up, because ofvarious reasons that I think maybe wouldn't even be reproducible, but Ihad a a high high percentage in the in the early days of Redeemer of NonChristians coming every single week, maybe acquarter with thrird of thepeople who were there we're not believers. I don't know I could do thatanybody can do that anymore and and reasons that happened wasprobably just a god in Guy's Providence, but that book helped me and lovelassreally helped me, and then I guess the little later on just trying to think about on theleadership side, not a great leader never have been. You know soing, youknow another es, there's some ministers that actually preach out of their leadership gift, and I lead out of my preaching gift. Inother words, people tend to follow me because they like the preaching. Sowhat's your other? What was your other? I mean so Preachyn. We all know thatTim Preaching Tching, I'm getting off the suject here, but I'm curious. Whatwould you say or what would people in your church say? Well we see that, buthere's Tim's other gift, one B that people may not have seen. If you justsaid now, it's not leadership. Is it evangelism? Is it pastoral care?I was. It turned weirdly enough. You know Ididn't. I was almost forty when I got here, but I would never have thought Ihad an Evangelis to gift until I got here and t I did it's. It's actuallyone of the reasons why some of those spiritual gifts, inventories that were popular years ago,the spirital gift dementories, where you say a you good at this, and youlike this and all that it's all based on your own self knowledge and if you'd asked me in Nien s or swhat your gifts are would never have given myself any points toward evangels.My got here is something about the situation drew it out. I do think people would say he's got agift of evangelism. I think people would. I don't think beyond that. You knowweirdly enough. I don't think I think people would say he has a really goodmemory. I keep trying to say that's, not a spiritual gift. He says, butyou've read so many books and you remember so well what you read and Itry to say you realize you mean that's. I said before I get puffed up. You knowthat is not a virtue. It's not a spiritual gift, it's not a spiritualfruit! It just. I have a really good memory. Now, that's ging of hastofaded.According to the books, it's faded since my mids, you know somewhere inthere, but it as that came in handy, but I wouldn't call that a gift, eventhough it really came in handy. It really did it just made because in a place likeNew York, the ability to sight other references a lot. You know I took thatit gave me that prefessoriol I didn't try to to affect the propessorialstance. I just am right and- and it put me in good stafe, so there was a lot ofthings that you would call you wouldn't say gifts, it's just that God in hisProvidence, gave me things that fit Manhattan at the time and you' like tolearn things and think about things and read widely, and you do have an ability,whether spiritual gift or not, to to disect and find patterns and temes. Andall of that has served you well. Oh that'snothin, that's not a gift!Actually just anability Yeah Justin. I mean just ask a quick follow up to that,because you've mentioned that your emotional register is not like JohnPipers. It doesn't have the same highs and probably doesn't have the same lows.You mentioned the propessorial memen clature. Have you ever felt guilt thatyou are not more emotionally demonstrative? I mean, have you everstruggled with that like there's something deficient in my I used to beencounting the pulpit, if I'm a real preacher, you know just in that. Thatquestion makes me furious. No, actually, no, I can tell you a true story. JustinReal, quick, real quick is that when my his I had a couple of Hispanic membersof my church, we don't have a lot of Hispanic members and here's- probablywhy is one guy actually admitted that when he would bring another Hispanicfriend to church, he would say now. I know it doesn't look like he reallyloves Jesus, but he really does...

...you know basically just saying he doesn't seem to get all that passionate. Now, here's what I found. Actually itdid mean and a everybody's preaching. In fact everybody writing preaching.Whatever is there's a there's. A SCOPE is gon to do Isman, there's a spectrmofpeople you can reach and whenever you try to try to change to get to reachmore of these people than these people over here kind of become less reachable so, for example, an awful lotof non Christians. I talked over the years where told me they were so happythat I never got all that like that, but usually were whitepeople or highly educated people. You know not necessarily all white people,but you know the more educated people and the more and the people most waryof evangelicals. In particular, just told me, you just don't seem to be likethe others and I always feel kind of made to feel guilty, not so much for mysin, but for my lack of emotional intensity- and I you know- and it looks to me andalso I fun people said you look like the kind of person if you're convincedof Christianity- maybe I could be because it doesn't look like you guys,swept up and anything you look as cynical andand as dubious and as sceptical as I am so you see. If I you know, sometimes Iwould say well, you know what, if I wanted my church to be a littleless black, I mean little less white and Asian a little bit more, reallymultiethnic. I probably ought to be t preaching like John Paper, but on the other hand, a that wouldn't rethey wouldn't bereally how I say authentic. It's not my personality. What I shoulddo is just be really really as good as I possibly can through the personalityGod's given me t truth yhrough personality and then,if I do that, then I'll reach the people that my personality can reachinstead of trying to market myself and say well, I need to be a little bitmore like this, because I'm trying to reach this this target group orsomething so yeah- that's really good. Justin! You have a book question. Wehaven't gotten to the main reason we have tim on here, but that's okay, sokind of a book movement question. I've always thought you cun correct me ifI'm wrong that you and Don Carson have a soft spot in your heart for Britishevangilicalsmd that if you had two manuscripts come to you the same time,you only had time to endorse one. You would always incline toward ndoorsayingthe the British folk. What have you learned in particularfrom British evangelicals? How have they inflenxd o you? I don't know ifthere's any books in particular, but our cover has been blown you're right,you're. True, that's actually pretty interesting.Well, you may doncs Canadian and though, though he you know, he grewup in French Canada he's actually not French Canadian he's. You know he'sokay and the Canadians, and he married a British woman. Okay and he got his.You know he went to you know kit his training over there and so and and we're also about the same ageand this here's something you might find interesting. One of Mark Knoll'searlier books is a book called between faith and criticism and there's a really. The reason Ifound out about the book was because he wrote back in the s. He wrote somethingthat when I was at Westminster Seminar on the faculty, it went around prealtyquickly. Anybody is pinting to it. Mark Nollsaid that from Abou, Thou, nine tuneen thirty, he says from O ne TND, nine hundred andthirty one thsnninehnded and fifty or so you could say that the it would be an exaggeration to say that the high level scotarlyinteraction of Orthodox Christianity with the academic world was confined tothe faculty room of Westminster, seminary high level. American excuse me highlevel. American Orthodox eventical interaction with the world ofscholarship was confined with tbe. An exaggeration to say was confined to thefact the you know the fagily room of West MIS semeri, but not much. He said,but not much. He said there would be somebody at Gordon College somebody atWheeten, but by and large what happened from the es to th S. Marcno said if you are a collegeeducated Christian and you wanted to read some really good scholarlyexposition of Evangelical Doctrine. Atheology you had a read an Englishauthor, including Louis WHO Ceasloz was not an evangelical, but the point iswhen I became a Christian, which was in the latees. There was only there wasiyhoward Marshall who wasn't reform, but you know you read him. There was,and there was packer there was stot. There was CS Lewis, there was Loy Jones yeah, it was all British and the reasonwas, I didn't realize that till Mark...

Noll said it was because everybody inAmerica largely went off in the Bible Institute. So we just the Americanevent OCS just vanished, and there were reasons why Scolaly Christin, Scottar evengelicalsmdidn't die in the the UK in the same way was partlybecause the UK in the book is said, the UK university stayed with classicaleducation longer. So you could learn. How to read. Text is one of the reasonswhy I must say: UK Evangelicasm is sort of theologically weak, but biblicallystrong right. It's why SYSTEMAC theology nunless you go to Scotland isnot very big, it's all diblical scholars. I mean theystill have that prejudice. You know we're not really reformed, we're. Justbeing biblical, and that's very much a stout, not Ja, packer, of course, but but theany and the prejudice there was people like Stoutin people like thatyou could get a really first class education in understanding the biblicaltext even places where they did they weren't evengelical anymore, because they were still doing giving you, the Greek andthe Hebrew and the Latin and all that Sto. So it was a really interesting point that I've learned from Mark Knol.Why? If you're a Christian like me, becameing a Christian in late S, youbasically had to get completely you're, basically build up only byEnglish authors. Now that- and somebody actually said when Bill Lane, who wasmy new testment professor, the first year at Gordon Conwell in one thousandnine hundred and seventy three came out with his gospel of Mark with a newinternational comentary- was the first sgolly commentary. New Testament work,probably since JAGRESA machen written by an American Hmmosyou, have to goback to mantion before you find something that scholarly and you knowthey, everybody recognized so because, actually before that, you know thinkabout the nithe old nic, it was ff Bruce and you know and Leon Morris andall those guys I mean we didn't even have Americans doing anything so anyway.That's that's! So that's why of the soft spot and in some ways as a Presbyterian, Ithink, even even don as a baptist would feel this way.Another reason we like to go back there so much as we do feel like we arebringing something we actually do feel that they are too allergic tosystematic theology and they, like us, sort of I'm a little. I think I'm muchbou depends if Kevin gets over there enough to know that there's there's alot of tribalism over there, too yeah and one of the advantages of beingCanadian or American or even Australian, is, if you show up you're, not quite amember of one of the tribes. So there was a number of years in which,in fact, I can go even further. I remember Rica titous to say if I getif we get an American like me and probably right now, Kevinis sort of the new version of this. They can get charismatics and protrestpeople and middle of the road people. You know all to getit they're all cometo the conference because he's American they've read his books, but if they getsomebody from any of those tribes to do the conference than nobody from that,tribe will come so there's a lot of reasons why we'vebeen very engaged over there over the years is partly, I feel like. I ow I'vetold them that I feel like Oh British eventalicalism of debt I can't repay,but also because I think I do you know. Americans have got some things that wecan same thing with a Dutch by the way, an in some ways with you know the JamesGetting Tono James Seglinton, recently more and in some ways the we have stuffthat they need. You know the NEO Cavinis need America, because we got somany more people and and and Churches D and and where is James, going to get allthis PhDs he's going to get a lot of them from here, but on the other hand,we need them because we actually haven't p Wev, never produced a bovinkhere so anyway, I'm just saying it's reallyimportant to be international if we CAS POSSIBLYCAN and that that's a littlebit behind that, I see Colin taking notes there, because this is a this isa Colin. Does it's an important issue? Okay, Colin, do you want your bookquestion, or should we just jump in? I can do a book quest. Okay. I think this.This might be interesting. So Tim, you really came alive as as a reader in college and then that extended from thoseseveral years into seminary, and then you went from there to leading achurch in rural Virginia. How did that affect your reading lifeand how did you take the best of what you'd been reading those years in thoseenvironments into really really really differentsituation? Well, I did plenty of reading actually back, then I had nomoney by the way. I would just let you know fom, one thousand nine hundred andseventy five one thousand nine hundred...

...and eighty four, my salary kaththat. Iwere trying to se my annual salary. Now I got A. I got a mance furnished free,okay, just keep that in mind: Imanse Furnishd, totally free everything paidfor you know they paid the church paid for the electriciand everything. Butapart from that, I had I, my sall started eightthousand dollars ayear and I think rude about twelve thousanddollars a year and even my own people, most of whom worked in the factoriesback then, in those days, if you worked at a plan, you made fifteen husanddollars a year, fourteen thousnd so, and it was understood that basicallythe minister would make about half of what everybody else was making a a something that I think I don'tagree with anymore, because I don't know how you're supposed to live in thetown. But so I had no money, but what it meantwas every Christmas. Basically, all my Christmas guess for books, no matter who cathy or my parents or myinlaws, everybody who anybody wanted to say what can I get you? I said a book Igave in the list and they remainly for many years Colin and everybody bannertruthbooks. Basically, so I mean I got you know Ijust I just read my head off when I was there. That's when I was reading ThomasBrooks John Owen, this a spurgeon which wasn't a puritant, of course, but I manbanner truthbooks and I got those things and I just e every R and I spenta whole year reading the books I got at Christmas and hardly getting any booksotherwise because I just didn't have the money for them. So when I got to Westbinster seminarythen for five years- and I was at t not only you know, you know there was abookstore there and with e fact, incredible fact: hat he discount backin those days and also I had a Fu library there, then I started h t Ibegan to read more widely and broadly, you know a lot of other theology. A lotof you know anything like that. So that's that's how the reading thinghappened, so I did read down there. I did but- and I also learn, though, thatevery you know in by the way in Europe you can tell where you are by smellingthe cheese, because every hundred year, every hundred miles that cheese changes.Okay in the south, you can every hundred miles the barbecue saucechanges. Do you know whether you're in easternnorth, Carolina or central North Carolina or western North Carolinawe're South Carolina? What smell changes in New York City? Well, first of all, you know. What'sreally weird is we've got everything because I mean youcan find every kind of barbecue here you have to know where, where it is,but you also find every kind of cheese ther. I remember I remember had somepeople from the Netherlands once walked into Zay bars with me on you know, on over in the on the west side, andthey were shocked. They said you have every kind of cheese I would find inthe Netherlands as I've never seen any other place. An America like that, andit depends Kevin- depends on the ethnic on clave.You have to know where they are, but you can find virtually everything aslong as you know where the little colonies are where they is live wherethe creos live. N. That I mean when I was. I got my vaccination last Sunday,older people. Of course, don't speak. The older people in the city don'tspeak English as well as the younger people do. I was out in Queens, and Iwas in a line there with a lot of older people, but a lot of them had signsaround their next thing. I only speak CREOL. I only speak tag along Wen. Ionly speak. You know you know, tommill sort of is my sayng right and you just as long as you know where theylive. You can find everything whether it's Chea anything,that's a cool thing. Anyway, there we Gongeti back to books yeah. We are wellThi, get a very, very unspiritual Personan Tho tenoing, my food betterthan I ever have tim. Have you ever watched the the Netflix special? You may not watchstandup Comedians, but Ryan Hamilton Youever, seen him he's Worman he's fromIdaho. It's very clean he's doing his bit in new in New York City, that'srecorded on Netflix and he's making all these New York City, jokes and one ofthem is people say if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere and hesays yeah you walk outside and there's sixteen pizza. Restaurants within threeblocks. Yeah I can make it I want to see you make it in my small town ofIdaho he was gently ribbing, the New Yorkerswho were were laughing at it every one of those sixteen is named. Rase pizzayeah. I think he may have said that Yeah Ord Rael Rase s pizza in New York,yeahe Ma. Sixteen all right. So we want to talk about a new book by BradVermerlin and it's called Kno it's hard for youto pronounce touch name, I know. Well, I'm used to saying for Munalin is whatI would have grown up with, but there's an ellen there, iser Arlin reformedresurgence and it's his published...

...doctoral dissertation that he did anoter. Dame correct under Christian Mit Yep under Christian Smith, so it'sfavorite, favorite Catholic Authorho, Catholic, so there's so a it's asociology of religion, sort of thing, but he is talking about in, I think,may sound sort of sellserving that we're talking about it, whereas some ofus, I guess all of us in a way- have kind of been living in this, but Ithink it's worth talking about in Brads at a nice job on the book sort ofchronicling what might be called the reformer surgeons young wrestlessreformed. We mostly want to hear Tim your thoughts on the book in themovement. What it is but Colin would be remissive we didn't start with you. Youinvented the whole thing, not very many people in their early an you weretwenty something right when you invented a whole movement colon. Whatis this thing? What were you writing about and does it still exist? So whatI was writing about. Kevin was a sudden growth of interest in reformd theology,especially aspects of sotereology among people. You wouldn't expect it from,and so we're talking baptists we're talking, charismatics we're talkingabout young people growing up amid post Maderity, suddenly reading, Edwards andCalvin, and things like that and so near as I could tell a lot of that,growth was concentrated around the mid to late S, which is about the time whenIh'd entered he college and it experienced that myself in a in a crewmovement where everybody's reading, Edwards and they're reading Piper andthings like that and spurgeon, and then that would continue on and grow in anumber of different ways. I wrote the original article in two thousand andsix that was following the Together for the Gospel Conference, the first onetheyhad ever done and again one of the interesting aspects of that was how youhad a Presbyterian and a charismatic and a couple southern Baptists workingtogether on this. I mand what brought them together inpart was there shared,reformed, broadly reformed convictions? The book then came out in two thousandand eight one person I met in two thousand and seven declined toparticipate in the book. He's one of the guests on the podcast today, but he would of course play asignificant role in that movement through his books. That Tim would write,starting in two thousand and eight, especially, and also through someinstitutions, including the Gospel Coalition, which Tim of course hadhelped to Co, found with Don Carson and where I would start working with themin two thousand and ten and were previous to that. A couple of bloggersnamed Kevin, deyoung and Justin Taylor signed up so tim. Do you consider yourselvesyourself? Maybe not the young, but were you a key figure in young restless andreformed? And what do you see about? Has the movement just gone the way ofthe Emergent Church and the whole thing sort of fell apart now I mean I'm the book which talks about the movement. Does it profiles three churches and itprofiles several organizations, so I get in there more often because on the one hand, I'mone of the three churches of were profile: Profiled Mark Drischols,marshill church when it existed and John Pipers bathlon Baptist and TimKeller and Redeemer, but it also spends a fair amount of time on the GospelCoalition, because it's one of the main one of the main organizations and DonCarson. I founded it. I would say what what I and I do think we are past our primebut not hat's, not necessarily bad. So let me just explain that I think prettybriefly, because everybody here has got the ability in the right to Wey in onthis we're all kind of I think equal actors in this Brad's book is actuallysaying- and I think rightly so- that the young wrestless reformmovement was not so much necessarily about taking a group of people andgrowing it doubling it tripling it. So now, there's more cow twice as manycalvinists or ten times work anes. He says it's probably true to all. It saysit's almost impossible to really judge that. Really, but it's almost certainlytrue that there's more young reform people, but he says the key thing wasthat th, the the young wrestles reformed, wasbasically a way of trying to fight for the center of evangelicalism he's a sociologist. So what he's tryingto say is he says: There's mainstream oventalicalism Christianity today,there's Progressive Emergence, I mean you know Rachel, Hal Evans, otherpeople like that. There's the Neowana Baptist the Scottmcnight Jesus creed, Missio alliance,...

...that sort of thing, and then there wasthe you might say the you kN reformed,reformed evangelicles in which he kind of puts people it by the way you knowlike John Mac Gather and Arcy sprol and Gospel Colition and together for theGospel Soone, and he says that group actually is become more prominentthrough this movement, and I want g to no. I think that'sactually what I have to say that Don and I originally felt that the evangelcalism that we knew and h h.This actually goes back to justice question the kind of Britishevengelicalism we knew in the S and S. even though t wasn't all British, itwas it. A John et was Carl Henry Haroldock andgay John stotjy. I packerit was broadly reformed. It was very high, viewof scripture, it was culturally engaged, but prettyOrthodox and we felt like Evangelicosm was broadening out and we actually felt like the oldcenter was, was moving and then evangelicalism originally wassort of smack it between liberalism and fundamentalism, and now it was sort ofwe actually felt like there was a fundamentalisside to it. That wasdeveloping and there was also a liberal side developing and it was all under evangelicism, and we talked about that.We talked about certain seminaries that were were bothered by the by the excesses of both penecostalism, theexpessis of the right wing, Maral majority stuff, and we were alsoconsiderd about the excesses of the Emergeng Church and the progressivestuff, and we actually wanted to strengthen the center and Bradfor. Merlan is actuallyperfectly fair in saying it was really more about symbolic capital. It wasmore about trying to create a situation in which more young people saw thatthis is a real, viable opportunity. I mean the a real viable place to stand. Obviously some people have resented itand I felt like we were gatekeepers and mean that can happen. Absolutely H, re.I don't know there is a downside to it, but I don't know how else you do itother than what we did, which was we were just trying to create institutions.crossways is a part of that. By the way, even though we didn't start crosswayingwas been theree for a long time, but these institutions are actually showing that we're trying to legitimizea certain kind of evangelicism that we think we wouldn't say it's the onlyevangaligoism. We just think it's extremely important is that about power.Is that about trying to you know get legitimacy? Does thatdelegitimize certain other people? I guess that's I mean for Marylan- isactually Brad's, actually pretty frank about the fact that that is actuallykind of what's happening, and I don't think that's really. Ididn't offend me a bit because I do think that we were trying to Donan. I said we were trying to lift upa kind of evangelichism that we wentn to Seegro, that we think is healthy and that we think the church in generalneeds and we thought it was weakening and we were trying to strengthen it. That does end up being. You knowgaykeeping and power politics, and that's what that's what a lot of theother groups- Christianity, Tday, emergings EMERGENC. You know the theother groups actually do not like us, because when they feel like we'retrying to de legitimize them, I don't I don't know anyway. We ought to talkabout that. Certainly online, that's sort of things happening all the time,but I actually, I thought the book was great and fair, yeah Iwase Questione,to get you Colin, so tim. What would you say to? And you hid on some of thecriticisms and we want to be self reflective self critical to the degreethat the four of us are awe in this, but also not selfflagulating. So I canthink of a series of criticism. Some people would look at this reformedresurgence and perhaps from the left would say. Well, this is just reallyneo fundamentalism, righ and it's just the return of the patriarchy. All ofthat you'd have others on the Resa from the right you know kind of earlier on.It's it's not confessional enough. You don't really have a high view of theChurch as parent church is bad and then sort of mix throughout it is it's big, Eva? It's the IndustrialEvangelical Complex more recently, the last four or five years. It would beyou've gone too far to the left, politically or yeah to sohit on any or all of those responding to those criticisms. What's fair,what's unfair, what do we need to learn from what doesn't hit the mark? Well,you know the reason I was actually veryencouraged to read the bavink biography was that's the very same thing thatwould happen to him. People thought that was a a Schitzophrenic, a modernand a a a confessional bavink, because sometimes he would he wouldwrite a whole book on a Christian View,...

O psychology, which you seem veryappreciative of what modern psychology said, but then critiquecoald comearound, so he was also given the same. He got it from the left and the rightyou're right about by the way the older, the older, you might say, criticism from the right migh come fromsomeoe like Darryl Heart, who says: You're, not confessional enough. Nowit's coming from people like. Why didn't you come out and favor trumpmore strongly, because now it's a disaster. So so they come out, and whyare you talking about justice? That's just that's Marxyst! The left actually in some ways iswatching and there is a certain amount of fragmentation happening on this andthey, I think, they're keeping t they hate us too, because they really feellike we're. Really Bad WERH. The return tof the Patrarch, but I guess I wouldsay originally we didn't have institutionshere and Brad Hins atthis. At the very end. I think, even though we're pastour prime in some ways we're moving into a better position, whwere we'regoing to move the movement forward through institutions that ofcelebrities. As you know, Carl treman always was at least half right aboutthe the fact that the early part of the Gosspel colition was all aboutcelebrities and we were- and some of you know, Mark Dever actually says yeah.You got a bunch of these celebrities. They basically have a a common, reformed eventel of approach. Let's gettogether and let's try to all bring in their constituency, that's right and webring them together and then we get them into the website. We get him intobuying these books and that sort of thing now the fact is, when you getstarted you really everybody there's nobody really doing a quality control,because when you start you actually all starting together and you're looking ateach other, and so for example, I would say we all felt like we could help markdreschol. We knew he was brash. We could see that, but it's the same thingwe're not a demomination and we said yeah. Okay, look at how he's been, andJames McDonald too, by the way I'll just I mean I maybe I shouldn't be outhere doing this or you cound see the what eventually happened to those folksand we kind of felt like all right. Well, let's all we're getting together.We didn't think of ourselves as a tight denomination. It was more like, let'sdo conferences, let's talk together and we can help each other grow, but we had a a lot of high profile. Imean everything from Darand, Patrick to to Josh. Harris to you know we just had a lot of highprofile. That's the problem with is the celebrity mode. What's happening isI'MTO. Take a look Kevin. You are not probably ever going to be the celebrityof John Piper No, and I think it's partly because there's a lot of reasonsthat you're younger and I actually do think it's more of a baby boomer thing,the celebrity thing where we really not part of any organization and- and Iactually think that that the future the movement is stronger because you've gotthese institutions going Butif. You have forty million discreet visitors tothe website in a year. If you have, I don't know what crossway is. Whatamazes me is crosswics putting os so substantial books. I can't believeyou're actually turning a profit. I guess you are because evidently they'restill paying justin salary. Still it frank, Peretty, yeah, Wel onhebackground paying our DAS. Well, the thing all I'm trying to say is, I think,we're moving into A. I think. The old young restless reform movement is a ispast, his prime, it was celebrity driven, it was and the new one you know as we goforward it shouldn't be anymore and and we're bloodied a little bit by it. I dothink some of the the individual celebrities are, you know, in otherwords, whatever John Piper says or I say, is going to be connected to theGospel couseand. T shouldn't be like that other word: it should be moreinstitutional and the institutions out to speak as a group, instead ofsomebody being so identified that you know whether that person does well ornot, then the entire organization goes down with frankly the same problem withrobbies Zakaris. Actually it was an intitution. It was built around him.Almost comit was Billeang him completely, and so, if, if somethingcomes out here, which almost certainly it is, it is sentially devastates theinstitution, so I'm really glad we're moving in a different direction there,and I think, therefore, it's a good direction because I don't see anydoctrinal waffling it's the sort of thing that John and I always wanted.Really that's good, I'm doing all the talking Colin, you had your hand upfirst and then Justin well, I was going to ask Tim about the the model versuscontrol quit. You know purpose that you raise there for the Gospel coalition,because what really changed for me was editing the book for views on thespectrum of evangelicalism with Andiniselli Forzonderbi in two thousandand ten, and I identified more closely with Al Moler's perspective in thatbook, which is as a confessional evangelical. We should be definedtheologically historically as an...

Orthodox movement within protestantism.But then, when he's challenged by Roger Olson and John Stack House, he has noresponse to them for how they're supposed to control- and I wanted to dig a little bit deeperthere with you to help underscore for listeners whatyou mean by we just wanted to set up a model, because I try to tell peoplethis that we don't have any ability tocontrol we're. Not We can't tell you you're, not an amegelical. We can'ttell you, you shouldn't, have a place to speak in here. There's no mechanismto do that. There's no institution of emagelicalism right wall we have is aninstitution called the Gospel Colition, which has a lot of people who ro thewebsite and come to the conferences. So there anything else you want to sayabout the purpose of tgce and how that continues simply as a model for what wehope others will find attractive and following Christ, Wat being a, I haveto say, be in a denomination, don't be an independent church and obviously prespyterians are goingto beat that horse. But I do think there are a fair number ofindependent that man. America loves, read the DEMIC democratization ofAmerican Christianity by Nathan, hatch, it's a real, unbelievable igh, opener and EEVERY N on every chapter. When I readI reread it recently and one chat. It basically talks about the fact thatwhen everybody started moving west, the episcopelans, the Presbyterians and thecongregationaist said no, we still want an educated ministry. We still want tohave doctrual control, but the methodist in the Baptist saidno we'll just ordain people. We don't have to train them because they'll becloser to the people. They'll win people, and so the methods ind. TheBaptists Lik grew like crazy, but had almost, but it also basicallyis a lot of demagoggry and it was. It was an overadaptation to Americanculture and there wasn't any ability to get kind of a critical distance becausethey didn't really understand their Bible very well and on one chapter Ithink, Oh, this is terrible. The next chapter, Heu Sai ther, realize hey thePresbyterians, an pisocaplins couldn't reach slaves, the methodist and the Baptist did, and then the next chat is so okay,that's right. Okay, because they couldn't that slaves couldn'tunderstand the Presbyterian sermons, but they could understand the baptistsermons. Then the next chapter, suddenly t is looks terrible again. Sopoint is evangelicalism is too adaptable to culture always has beenits strength. Is that sometimes God uses that and that's the reason whyevangelovism is so strong. On the other hand, there's a downside,which I think we're seeing right now in the political realm, where there's noability, they don't have so many evengecals Don, have the Biblical andtheological ability to get critical distance from thei culture, and we are part of that. Evangelicalism wejust are Gospel. Colition is not a denomination, it's a it's a voluntaryassociation and we you can't say if Justin Taylor sayssomething on his blog, that represents everybody or that, where the Kevin does, we have a very broad statement of faithwhich gives us some boundaries which are really important and a lot ofpeople think it's too narrow. But it's way way broader than a confession. You know hatyou toing whith, you build a denomination, so I would say just youknow don't make I mean. I know darrow hearts always saying. POSPOL questionis a kind of denomination and unfortunately it has been for a lot ofindependent type people I would say, get in a real denomination with a true,a true theological, tradition, yeah and and have discipline, that's okay. SoI'm going on to him, but it been it don't make the Gospel colition to be adomination. T has been okay, maybe so, but we don't have total control over itand therefore we don't have control over evangelicalism. Admittedly, ifyou've got a great website, it almost seems authoritator said wow look at allthis and then you go to some other website and it's kind of that's. Wehave more symbolic capital and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.It's it's! The same thing is just good preaching good preaching you. You learnhow to adapt. You use the AUDIENC's language. You use the audiences levedexperiences for illustrations. Is that getting symbolic capital yeah?Is that manipulative? Not necessarily it could be? Okay, I think at its BestTGC together for the Gospel desiring God, nine marks are leading people deeper into a rich theological, a Clesi ilogicaltradition, Ait's worst and maybe not even through the fault of thoseorganizations. It becomes the new tradition. Now our tradition is alwayslayering on itself. So you know Lord Willing some of the books thaar beingpublished. Now people are going to be...

...reading, Dohn, Piper books or TimKeller, books or Don Carson books in generations to come, but I've alwaysfelt like it's doing admirable work when itintroduces people to the the old banner of truth books when it inproducespeople doesn't take presbyterians out ofPresbyterianism, but shows them broader and deeper into their routsyeah, and even more so with those who come out of less confessionaltraditions and we would Presbyterian Wise Justin. You wanted to asksomething: I wonder if we could go back to thecelebrity question a little bit, because I think when people think aboutwhy rr and TGC, if theyre, critical at all the celebrity issue comes up. You know when Josh Harris to use hisphrase xcommunicated himself from the church because of his beliefs. There was a lot of chatterabout the problem with Christian celebrity. If you look back at Joshas trajectoryactually, Josh was writing books about humility and about Orthodoxy and about purity and wasn't traveling theconference circuit. He was mainly focused on a local church, so thecriticisms and the actual patterns on the ground don't always fit it becomesthis kind of one size fits all easy criticism. You Know Daran Patrick. Idon't know that Darren had groupies, you and John Piper, I think, are themost popular by far of the TGC council members and both of you runn in the opposite direction ofcelebrity culture. You know you put. Somebody like Mark Risco mark wasobviously cultivating something, but what would you say are ways that that younger Christians or Christians,who achieve some sort of notoriety of popularity, can can avoid the trappingsof celebrityism, while avoiding the kind of one size fits all easycriticism? Wait it Asan. I do remember I didn'tstay. I knew Daron a long time ago. I actually didn't keep up therelationship and when things went south for him as so manyways, I really Ididn't talk to him. So I don't know this by. I did read where he at one point he actually said he hadbecome obsessed with his image online. You remember that he talked about thatthat he was. He realized he was Culo, he had gotten trapped into cultivatinga voice and a brand and a an image online in spie of the factthat he didn't go around the othe old. The old way of doing celebrities wasyou, I mean it's back as far as billy Sunday was, you know, going and speaking to bigconferences, but I don't think you have to necessarily be on the conferencecircuit just an now to be sort of trapped into that one of the things that happen to mewhen the book startd coming out- and this is one of the reasons why nooffense to Kevin or any of you, but I try to tell at least pastors be carefulabout writing to many books. You know you cavins probably heard this.I mean, I usually say Ey your mind tends to change. Fortunately, KevinMine, never changees, so that's easil! It is true. It's a steel troun! Well,you know whan. If, if you, if, basically, if you're right abouteverything when you're twenty five there's really no reason why ou can'texpeak Buti was about twenty eight, but I mean it would take you that long yeah,it's pretty pretty locked in that's what happens when you're Dutch yeah, it's Tru, I got to say once thebook started coming out and I wrote my reason for got. I was fifty eight whenI wrote the book when the book start coming out insteadof talking afterwards, I would come down after the after the service walkdown and just greet people before that it was always New Yorkers, eithermembers or visitors from New York and then somewhere around theearbout, twothousand and ten most of the people that would come forward. That wouldpush forward. People said I'V, read your book could just sign the book, or can I take a picture with you? Thatwas a big change and I utterly hated it utterly hated it, and it did mean thatno matter what you say, You'e trying to go away from celebrity well just stillhappen, and it was largely the books and I got to the place where I couldn'tdo it anymore, milrs. I actually because you can see if you're, ifyou're visiting in town from Texas- and you wanted to hear Tim Kellerpersonally after reading his books, you're going to be the first one topush to the forward, if he's just standing there and any non Christiansor even members, they're not going to do it at that point it just. That was avery big part. I UAS OS. I did a lot of inosence pastoral ministry and evenevangelstic ministry for a good hour after every service, and I couldn't doit anymore. It was just taken away from me also by the way, so I'm trying I'm I'mtrying to push back a little bit Justin. It doesn't matter whether youseek celebrity. If you write the books and you get well known, you get a lotof people following your social media.

You feel the pressure and you get you get a lot of. You knowhatemail. You know various things. You also get a lot of ridiculous adelationadulation to and the other thing is you know, I don't know whether this is going tobe true or not. I do know that the articles about robbies Agarisa came outin September from some women say youalways say you don't know the pressures I'm under you know. I think, when thereason why David looked at Bathsheba and said I want her, you know what heprobably said. Nobody knows the kind of sacrifices I'm making. Nobody knows thepressure IM under. Nobody knows the you know what I haveto do for Israel and I deserve this. So what happens is there's a kind of selfpity that grows with the with the the celebrity and also very often abusineess that keeps you know, I'm talking as a man who you know sees thislit now too busy to really cultivate the parlife you ought to. So God doesn't be, God, isn't as real you're talking abouta God. That's more abstract! You put all that together. There really is thefame social media of the books. It comes on you and I actually stilldon't think that it's good at all for anybody. It'sa lot of pressure. I'm very glad that John and I got through. I guess we gotto the finish line without emotional breakdown and the fair embezzlement.You know something like that. I can I understand exactly how that happens or pressure to be something you feellike you can't be so anyway. I don't, I think you know,I'm all against the celebrity culture, I'm part of it, even if you're runningaway from it Andand. Therefore, I'm saying I think,it's good if our movement moves away from the big, the big names, yeah Colin, the videos helpful on these podcastswasactually talking with somebody recently. I think Kevin and Justin were on thisthreat as well, where somebody said that the timeline of young restasrerformed is two thousand two thousand and sixteen and Tim I know you're a student ofrevivals throughout history, as I am as well and how you know a revival has happened isbecause the revival has ended thaand, that's how you look back on thefirst grade, awakening distinguished from the second grade awakeningdistinguish at with. What's happened in our day, and perhaps we now have likeyou said we're past our prime, maybe two thousand and sixteen was Tho end. Let's jump in right on that I'll, neverforget you and I were together on election day. You were here inBirmingham in two thousand and sixteen Oh yeah. Hardly any of US could haveimagined what would happen that day and I don't think I could have had any clueof what would happen after that. How do we navigate through such adifferent situation, and I agree with you about the transition towardinstitutions away from celebrity? I think that's that's overdue for us andI'm grateful for that- a focus also on local churches as the priority of ministry, as opposed to online or asopposed to conferences and things like that or even books. I'm a on board onthat as well. But how do we deal with the situation now, where we don'tbelieve, we've changed in terms of our theological convictions right, I goright back to what you and don and John and everybody else signed on two in twothousand and seven, and it would come across his pretty dramatically radicalthe Gospel coltions foundation documents written back then for today.So maybe this is maybe a last question for us, but how do we navigate goingforward, given that we don't think we've changed we're keeping that flagthere, but it seems like a world, has changedquite a bit and not for the better in terms of how our situation is right.Well, no actually, as somebody see I'm old enough to know that that mean I stopped changing fairly y.u you what happen you evvolve more when you're younger and then you get to aspot and your there. You are, and there is no doubt about t you can see it ind.How people respond to John to John Piper is that the the cullgures morefragmented and the church is more fragmented and the people are more exhostile to one another, and so we need to. We need to stay where we are and let let everybody do what they wantto do and talk about stay where we are because the institution see what I'm Miy give you another couple AC. Twentynine is a church planning movement. Stadito city is a churchmainyg movement,even though we're Asini is a formally reformed movement. Citous city has reformed theology ind its training,but it doesn't just train reform churches, so there's a fair number ofchurches that we start that are not reformed, but basically we move them inthat direction or we do reform people you've got church planning movements mostly are really going on, but mostlyby not not through celebrities, you've...

...got you've got publications, you've gotwebsites, you've got organizations, that's how Shou go sp, but stay stay where we were staywhere we are honestly do not not let people say you know. I know that we ere at the end,but let me just saw I saw at tweet not that long ago, saying Rick Waren, TimKeller, John Piper. They were good in their day because they just said theChurch needs to preach the Gospel and not get to political, and you sendpeople out there to do. You know cultural engagement, that's not goingto work anymore. First of all, it's time to be smash mouth, it's time toget political. It's time to you know not try to be above politics. You need to call people out and youneed to a d and by the way, you're not going to be able to do culptulengagement because Nowod, if you're an evengalor you're, not Onna, belto get ajob so its a combination of kind ofRoddrayer and dol trump, and that's not where the Gosipel colitionis. We actually still believe we can preach the Gospel. All these extremesdon't have evantelstic trategies. I actually don't think the emergent hasan evangelstic strategy. I don't think I don't think mainstream Christianitytoday has much of an Avancalsic travegy. It's very pragmatic. I don't think theRodrayer approach, the Benety doption has an evangelistic strategy and I knowthat the trump right has no evangelistic strategy. They have no wayof saying we're going to convert a lot of people and I think that's still where we areand that's unusual for us in Evengel, like Wasman, I still think we vantalizein the institutional church and then we disciple people and send them out to besalt and light, including doing politics and working for justice andCel it carring about the poor. But that's that's. That's old fashioned andI think we need to stay right where we are, but don't do it throughcelebrities do with three institutions, and I think, and the very very last a couple of sentences Kevin of the forMerlin Book Brad says he says e, no matter how you look at it,sociolgically theyre will. Oh, he thinks iywill always be a market in the world for the kind ofChristianity that we repre at, which is pretty interesting course he's prettysympathetic as a Christian right. He says stay where you are because therewill definitely be plenty of people who say this is the way I want to go. Okay,Wu Tim. Whenever you lose your Gospel Focus again and can say yes to come onthe PODCAST, we would love to continue this conversation. I love the way thatyou ended it there with some encouragement, hopefulness not pattingourselves in the back. I think all of us would agree as a thing new calvanism. Why are our reformersurgeons as a thing really o cares? It go hat dow anyway,you kN as a thing. It was in one sense. It was way overblown to say it was oneof the top tenny. You know things changing the world, so I think all of us woill be much moreinterested in our local churches in theseinstitutions, whish mater. How is crossway doing reformd theological,semary Westminster. I mean all of these things matter much more than the bigpicture, ISM or movement, and so certainly some of that influence wasexaggerated. But as we were saying over email a couple days ago to im, I thinkthere's there's a lot of reasons. Even the midst of this fragmentation, whichyou're absolutely right about to see encouragement, you go. You travelaround the world more than I do, but I've been around enough to see a lot of these things. Are I mean thereare really exciting things happening in the UK in Turkey in East Asia, in theMiddle East, I mean things that I in the Spanish speaking world things thathaven't happened before and it's not about Tim Keller, John Piper. It isgenuinely about the Gospel and the reformation trues we love Ta. I meanthis stuff is really happening, or I can say is someone who teaches pastoralministry students. You know they always tell me their favorite book in theclass and a lot of them say the R their favorite book in all of Seminary is DonCarson's book about his dad ordinary pastor. They love that book and I havethem write a paper on one hero living and dead and the ones that they writeabout who are living are most invariably. You know their GRANDPA, whois a pastor, their dad, who is a pastor and R UF campus minister people thatmost people will know nothing of and they're, so moving these people are aremaking a difference in people's lives. It sort of stories that people will often not hear- and youknow Don, would always say he was so encouraged by the generation ofseminary students coming through, and so I think, there's lots of reasons tosee that Lord May. You keep us humble and keep us preaching and keep us on themain things. As the main things and ellister big would say, the the mainthings are the plain things in the plan.

Things are the main things, and I dothink that God, though it may surprise us how he does, it will honor that sothank you, Tam Collin, Justin, wonderful to be with you and theinvitation is always open. We love to have you again, and so until next time,lorify God enjoy him forever and read a good book.

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