Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode 20 · 1 year ago

Team Compassion vs. Team Courage

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of Life and Books and Everything, Kevin, Justin, and Collin are back together to discuss some of the more pressing issues facing the church today: sexual misconduct and allegations, this time concerning the late Ravi Zacharius, friendless pastors, the curse of fame, dangers facing the church from “the Right” and “the Left,” and helpful books for forming one’s political philosophy.

This episode of Life and Books and Everything is brought to you by Crossway. The Crossway titles we want to highlight in this episode are the ESV Scripture Journals (Illuminated Scripture Journals and the Greek Scripture Journal ). Bible readers can take extended notes or record insights and prayers directly beside corresponding passages of Scripture

These thin, portable, long-lasting notebooks are great for personal Bible reading and reflection, small-group study, or taking notes through a sermon series.

Timestamps:

Our attempts at journaling [0:00 - 10:34]

The sexual misconduct and allegations of Ravi Zacharius [10:34 - 37:10]

Agreeing and disagreeing on the dangers facing Reformed(ish) Evangelicalism [37:10 - 1:01:14]

Books to help inform a political philosophy [1:01:14 - 1:18:33]

Booklists:

Justin:

The Contested Public Square: The Crisis of Christianity and Politics by Greg Forster 

Political Visions & Illusions: A Survey & Christian Critique of Contemporary Ideologies by David T. Koyzis 

A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles by Thomas Sowell 

Kevin:

The Great Debate: Edmund Burke, Thomas Paine, and the Birth of Right and Left by Yuval Levin 

Christ and the Kingdoms of Men: Foundations of Political Life by David C. Innes 

The Federalist Papers 

Collin:

Them: Why We Hate Each Other--and How to Heal by Ben Sasse  

To Change the World: The Irony, Tragedy, and Possibility of Christianity in the Late Modern World by James Davidson Hunter 

The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion by Jonathan Haidt 

Resources mentioned:

Article: Why The Young Hate The Torries by Ed West 

Article: Unequally Woked by Samuel James

Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address 

Letter from Birmingham Jail by Martin Luther King Jr.

America in the King Years (3 book series) by Taylor Branch 

Readings and salutations wellcome backto life and books and everything you will be very glad to know that ColinHanson and just untailor are back, although you may have been wishing formore bothering all the time, but bobping is weft. Thebuilding and Callin and Justin are back, so you can determine whether that's agood swap or not. It's not a fair trade, not at all, and just so people knowmore people, listen to that episode than any other episode, we've ever doneof lacking books and everything. So I think we found the formula less of meand Jus Wel Gevin and BOBBIC and ND more of Scottish acccents people from acrossthe pond. I guess they were. They were tired of our midwestern. Stick well,itor back it's backin better than ever all right.We are glad to have crossway once again as our sponsor. We are very gratefulfor them, their partnership and the fine resources that they publish. Wewant to mention today the e SV scripture journals. There are a numberof options: the regular scripture journals Old Testament, new testanentsets also sold individually. He has the illuminated scripture journals, whichare illuminated and Greek scripture journals, which is very cool with theGreek scripture dem New Testament set with the Greek New Testament producedby Tindale House Cambridge, with added space for notes, ind the margins. These are great for people who love totake notes in their Bible people who want to listen to sermons your passordsgoing through a book of the Bible, and you get one of the scripture journalsand you want to take notes right there as you're listening to impreach and maybefor people refreshing on theirGreek or new students, learning the language, the great way to take notes,alongside passages in the original, Greek or pasturs preparing for sermons,so check out the ESV scripture journals Justin. Do you journal not notnecessarily with those but just curious there? There are two types of you know:Christians, the ones who journal and provide ample evidence for futurebiographers and those who don't and the God ungodly, shallowed Type Yeah, I'min the latter category journal. I have a few journals ifanybody were to go through my files and find manystarted journals. That begin January, first, Dear Journal, I probably won'taie doing this for many more days and then it kindof drops off a few dayslater. So I I like to take notes when I read and write in margins, but I'veI've never been a dedicated sort of no book tournalr. Are you guys? Well, Idid some I journald for a season in college and H. I think I I I needed tobe in that introspective moody sort of not that ever who journals is itsrespective a moody, but for me it it it, but didn't last for very long wheneverything shut down with Covid, I heard lots of people saying start a journal record what you're,seeing what you'r feeling? What you're experience saying this S, you're goingNA, want to go and show that to your grandkids someday, it's going to bereally interesting. I did that for a few days and then I thought this is anending and then then I decided I'd. Do it once a week. I did that for maybe amonth or so and realize this is going to keep going for a long time and UH.So I don't know I I will have like six journal injuries that will be a realtreasure trove for my grandchildren, someday Colin. What about you? I took a class in seminary on patoraltheology. We had to read a Eugene Peterson Book and I think theprofessor's comment back to me was: do you have any kind of interior life wow? That was to the point. I think itwas the first assignment in the class as well. I guess I wasn't in the quitquite the right mood now. You think for somebody who writes as much Um that Iwould journal more, but it's never been. It's never been natural to me. I'veI've prayed sometimes in written form in the past, but that's been quite awhile now. So for some reason I just don't. I just don't do that. So I guess.If anybody wants to know what I think they're going to have to listen tothese pokyeah, that's right. Just in it's not a a secret that John Piper isa prolific journaler and it's always...

...amazes me because he you know for years.His writing sermons. He's writing books, he's writing blogs and I I genuinelyenjoy writing, but when it comes to a journal every day when I, when I tried it, just feelslike ahone one more thing on my writing assignment that I have to get done now.I got Ta Right In this journal. Have you ever talked to John About that?I mean He. He must not have felt that way about journaly yeah. I think that'sright. I don't think you thought of I as here's a duty that I have to do buthere' something that helps me to think. He said many times that he doesn't knowwhat he thinks until he writes ut to hold a complex argument in your head orto kind of work out implications or definitions or nuances. So he is thesort of person who he said before that he would write thesame number of books, even if no one ever published them, and I think thejournals are probably similar for him, not just nearating what he's feeling ona particular day but also trying to work out, theological problems and makeobservations and try ideas out to see what they looklike and what they sound like. So I don't think for biper ever felt like aa duty or a half to do, but something that he he wanted to do because ithelped him. I I wonder his life is obviously going to play outvery differently, but I think about that with bonhoffer, so much what wehave a bonhaffer with these journals that are filled with a lot ofspeculation, it's very hard to reconstruct histheology as Resolde than that. What do you think that might mean for JohnPiperf people? Look back. Are they j going to be able to see a prettynatural progression and understand how it all fits together like a puzzlepiece,or are they going to open their eyes and say Whoa? This gives me a whole new perspectiveon what he was thinking or maybe even a scary one yeah. I don't think that it would be in terms of some massive revelation or some completelydifferent, John Piper, but when you're talking about somebody like bonhaffer,whose life he he lived, the number of days thatthe Lord appointed for him, but he did not live a long life. So it's more of afragmentary record of what he believed what he thought in any particular day.So I think any time that you have someone like a Martin with a King or abonhoffer somebody who's who lived. You know what W we r what we would regardas half of a life of a long life. Then it ends up being more fragmentary,where somebody like Piper has published so much in print unless there'rs some secret strugglebehind the scenes. I think there ends up being more cotanuity where, whenit's more fragmentary approach, you can have more ambiguity or more revelations,because they they didn't, make a certain struggle public or a certainStrean of thought. But you know this relates to Edward Studies as well,because now we're picking about everything that Edwards ever rose andsaid some of the things that he didn't intend for a publication or I didn'tthink it was ready for publication. Prime time, Woutd H D have had more nuance. What if it had been?You kN W what we would say today, workshopd more, I got Ave thoughtthrough and gotten more feedback, so there was some danger in going back toa journal of an Edwards and saying you kN W. This is what he thought. Well, itmay have been what he was musing about one night by the Gandlelight atmidnight and and not what he would have said in the sermon or a lecture or orin a print book. Just in can you give us the uh the line you were telling us that FredSanders shared this exact quote from Jonathan Edwards. I don't know if thiswas in his journals or some letter somewhere, but this is a p, perhaps areason to keep some thoughts on the inside. Do you have that in front ofyou Justin I'm here? This was Edwards, I think, declining oror presenting his qualms to Princeton College about why he would not make agood president and he he ultimately felt divinely led to do it and wasconfirmed by friends and family and then ended up dying after a smallpoxinoculation, but he said to them. I have a constitution in many respects,parpeculiarly unhappy, attended with flacid solids, Bapid, sizy and SARSEfluids and a low tide of spirits. Oh, I e you sound perfect to be a covetfrensident. No wonder! No wonder the marriage to a difficult man book Whas,published yeah, but that was back in the day when people talked very freelyabout their solids. You read some of Kalvin's last lettersand it's a little bit TMI es yeah!...

That's where later Victoriansensibilities came in to just you know. Let's just use some euphemisms Ol right, but we weren't going to talkabout flacid solids, we'll do a whole episode sometime on John Hel, JohnCalvin's health, El it'll, be even more Poi episode. I promise it will be OK. Ihave no way to make a good transition into a serious topic. So Um pauseserious okay. Here we go last week. Well, it seems like everyweek in twenty. Twenty is some hard news. Some bad news and last week with First Christiant today,head an article later follow up podcast and then world did a littlemore reporting talking about the the allegations against Rabie Zacariaspassed away a few months ago, and I want to use this as a springboard notso much to talk about the particulars of the allegations against Ravi related to sexting allegations and these h inappropriate, behavior that'. Hardlythe right, you know serious enough euphetism for it. If the allegationsare true but moral turpitude at these spas, but itcauses us to reflect once again on what wh wh. What are we doing? Whatwhat you know they're, but by the grace ofGod, go I always want Ta. You know give a proper expression of our our own sense of fallen this, but in sofar as we've learned anything Collin and Justin. What what sort of thingsare you doing in your own life to protect your life? Your your marriage,your walk with the Lord. What sort of lessons have we learned mea? We couldgo through a litany of fallen leaders, some of whom were orAur friends some who have died, some who are still trying to make a come back inministry. So there's too many stories to profitably want to recount and I'd likeus to at least reflect for a few minutes and what we learn from them.But before we do that, I wonder: Do you think that these sortof catastrophic falls and, let's just you, know, put out there, we don't knowwe don't. I don't have any inside information in on Ravi Zachariis, justdealing with the allegations that are out there and at this point, as best aswe can tell, it seems hard to think of a counter story to the to the one.That's there, but we reserve final judgment and hopefully the ministry will be providing moreinformation as they can. But do you think this is happening more often thanit used to I mean: is that that's what you hear this is h the way we have celebrity pastors orBigeva or Evangelical Industrial Complex. That's why this is happening,or do we just hear about it more because of our connected world? What doyou think Callin? I don't think this is the interesting answer. I I think we'rejust hearing about it. More H. One thing that's brought the three ofus together is those friendships, but then also our our love and interest in avagelicalhistory, and there are exceptions. Billi Graham, iscertainly an exception when it comes to money and when it comes to sex, but he wasn't an upse an exception whenit came to family, I mean he and ruth had a strong marriage, but the kids hada really difficult time there mean you could just keep looking there's then alot of major challenges, frevagelical leaders and and a lot of why we don't know aboutthem- is because we've forgotten or just never taken the time to look. So Ido think we're struggling a bit from a case of presentism, but that doesn't lessen any of theconcern. I guess so, and it's also not particular to haveangelicals and yet nevertheless, it's a major problem. I'm wondering Kevin, you guys, you'vejust read Pol trips book lead and we've talked about that book. A lot the threeof us personally and I think it's dead on when it comes to turn the attentionaway from the individual into the community, and I think in almost every case you couldsee some of these things coming and you...

...could see it in community. So, let'ssay: Take the Ravi Zacarius pace as an example. We're not trying to dwell onthis, but we're going off some of the reports that we've that we've seen reportedly, that he didn't didn't, haveany friends or nobody that he could trust to talk about these things.Thereh's been no mention of any church involvement, no pastor that we've seenanything from you have a ministry that bears yourname and where a number of family members are on the payroll or on theboard. You can talk about this as a particularthing with Rabvie, but it seems pretty clear, there's a bigger communitydimention going on what did you think heavin about that aspect of of Paultrip's book m about behind every leadership failure is, is a failure ofleadership community? That's the real genius of the book andH plug to your fine podcast interview with Paul about it. Where he's reallyfollowing up from dangerous calling in this book, lead to say it's, it's it'sthe lack of friends. It's it's the network, it's the the failure to havegospel community around Aman. Now, there's at the end, there's no fool proofscenario that keeps us all out of sin, but one of the things that we see withthese is with these sad examples. It's not like it's not like everyone is going to say. Oh You, W everything I knew about him was was terrible. You K whatever thesituation may be there. There will always be people for whom say this doesn't look like anything of theperson I knew, and so it's a reminder to me to not just you know ensure that thereare some people out there. That would say, Oh you know, Gevin the young's agreat guy, and I got. I got nothing but good things to say about him, but whatabout the people who see the t cental part of me in the ugly side ofthings? Do they have such a place in my life that they'd be able to speak intoit? That they'd be able to say something, and I do think that one of the reminders isthere's a massive danger, the the more authority you are given or accrued thatyou only put people around you who who are going to affirm you who a'regoing to you know. Maybe their their job depends upon you. Maybe theirplatform depends upon you and you have an unhealthy environment where peopleonly want to tell you things that you want to hear, and I'm you know want to be appropriately nervous that Iwould ever have that sort of relational ecosystem around me, because it doesn'tserve Me and you K Ow, you don't have to be world famous like Rabbie Zacariswas you can be in your own little church world that you can create thissort of structure around you and the three of us have talked that. I dothink sometimes there's a peculiar danger for those who are whether it'sleading their you know, heading headlining, their own ministry or oftenchurch planters are peculiarly in danger of this because they may have astheir leaders the very people that they led to Christ. They may tend to be allyounger, it's hard to make that transition to see that you're no longertheir father and the faith, but you're now a peer or you actually submityourself to their leadership. So I think those sort of situations lendthemselves to unhealthy dynamics, not that you can't in a traditional church,but there are some things if you come into a church setting andyou're thirty years old and they have sixty year old elders who have beenaround the block a time or two and aren't on the Internet. You know seeingyour latest greatest post or tweets they're going to be a lot less likelyto you know blow smoke wherever you blow smoke and hold you accountable. Another element here is just a numberof days on the Road Mhm. I hear this about musicians, a lot of how muchdivorce and difficulty they face. There's a common alitey there of beingon the road Um and also difference between being a pastor, and a speakerlike this, as a pastor, ideally will be in one place long enough for the peopleto not be impressed with him, whereas a speaker, cangos throug Inyou, can go from place to place andalways be the star when you're a speaker,...

...your greatest hit too yeah. That goes on Great Talg and people at Your Homechurch, like they've,heard your your good, your bed and Youre ugly in terms of you're,delivering your content and and Moods I mean you can go all the way back toHavein jocal history. This is George Witfield. I mean how you can perfect asermon when you breach it hundreds of times. I want to hear more adjustine'sthoughts here, but Kevin whant to ask you a follow up. We've known each other.For a long years, a all three of us and a ve been friends for a long timeenough to see a let of life change enough to see a lot of change with ourfriends as well Um, but Cavin, I wonder, is that a trait that you would considerwould be a strong suit of yours about having friends for a long time actuallyheard from one of your friends recently who told me that I should ask you aboutthe cerial dance SG, who you're talking too about th. Ijust I have my sources. You know h. You know me cabin I'm a journalist. I havemy sources but y. You have friends going all the way, Wa all the way backto seminary. They didn't know you as Kevin Diong. Writing all these books,pastering a big church, interviewing famous authors about bobink. They knewyou has a goofy seminary student, but I d n't friendship. It doesn't come easy,but it seems like you've been able to keep some really long term friendships.You tell us more about that yeah I mean the passor needs friendsand needs friends in his church, but you're going to need friends outside ofyour church too. So I mean I have H, iave, two very good friends from highschool. We don't see each other all that often, but we h we climbed tofourteener in Colorado a few years ago. So we do when we can- and you know oneof those friends we were in the same kindergarten class together. So he'she's my my longest, lasting friend and friends from college, andthen you alluded to these friends from seminary. There were a group of US ninein total and we're getting together. In three weeks we get together every fall.'ll just be six of us. This time and yeah those guys know all of the. I have lots of strange things about me.The cerial dance being one of them ll have to save that for a another time,something to look forward to yes and Um when I'm there. They call me by theworst nickname that I have been given, which is Seleene, because when I wasdyoung is a very common name where I'm from Peopl, but they heard it and theyall thought it was deon, so they called me Selen Dion. So it's still, I don't even when I'maround them, I don't even think of it. They're like Hasalene, where you wantto go for dinner, and it's like that's me, I'm Slean, so seline wit to celiaxyeah, that's right! So it does help. And then I you know talk to you guysmore than is healthy and have other friends I mean. I think it's not it'snot follproof, but it's really important, Justin H. How do you seethis what' sort of n? I know none of us w are trying to put ourselves up as theexample and all these things, but any lessons that you've learned or you'vereflected on some of these catastrophicallydifficult falls and allegations we've seen yeah w regard to your original question.It's really hard to figure out. Is this happening more frequently or are wejust hearing about it because of how connected we are all to social media? Ithink one facet of it has been that Um victims feel more empowered to maketheir allegations public, whereas that might ot have been true ten years ago,less three twenty years ago, farther back you go, I think the harder thatwas for somebody to come forward. Another thing that strikes me is thatyou think of the Triumbrante of sex money and power, and it's I think it's always been thecase that if you were involved in a sex scandal, if you got caught bezzlingmoney, you know that's an objective thing, but in some strange way it'sbeen encouraging that there have been church discipline, H, issues of of pastors and and failure and fall out from ABUSIV power.I don't think that that was happening as much in the past I mean that theabaseof power was but the ability to hold somebody to account for that. Sothose are maybe a couple of countertutive ways to look at whetherwe're just hearing about it more or I don't think that necessarily the the amount of sin is increasing, but Ithink tha amount that we're hearing about. It is increasing and I I don't think there's any foolproof way for us to prevent it or to prevent it from our friends. You canalways deceive people. You can always be doing something from two am to fouram on some device. That's not connected...

...to cavanenize you kN W. If you want, ifyou wan to fool those around you, you can. I don't know that you can do itforever, but there's apart from some sort of having a polygraph in thepastoral office, every time th the pastor comes in, I don't think there'sany way to absolutely prevent it, but I do think there e are things that we can can do. N N, one of the things thatcomes to my mind, is the role of the conscience. That, as is my conscience,starts to get dulled or the biblical terms defiled seared, as, as I tell awhite lie in it, and it doesn't prick my conscience, it doesn't bother me Ican. I can move on nd the next time it Mak it a little bit easier time afterthat it gets a little bit easier. I think those are danger zones. Those areyou know, you're driving down the highway and the warning lights arecoming onto the DASH board Um. I think we need to pay attention tothose and work hard to keep a clear conscience to have people to whom wecan confess our sins have people who are willing to ask US questions thatwe're willing to be honest with it. It was really striking withRavizacariis that, to my knowledge, he wasn't a member of a local church. Idon't believe his family is connected to a local church, and you know Imentioned that ontwittern and number of people said well that might not have prevented it or h. You know the churchmight not have handled allegations well, but I think there's somethingintangible, almost indescribable oall about being connected to a local churchwhere you were accountable to other peopleand you are h putting the community before yourself. So all those things Ithink, there's there's vertical dimensions to this and horizontaldimensions, and sometimes we can so focus on the horizonttal dimensions.You know just you can achieve purity by having thestrictdistcovodanize setting or having the greatest accountability system, andI think those things are't important. But if you don't start with thevertical of Matthew, five egt blessit an the pure ind heart, for they shallsee God, if that's not your primary motivation. If that's not your yourgreat fear, if you're only thinking about those whom you will let down, Ithink Youare in in a Dangeros zone. So the vertical and the horizontal bothneed to be there but th. The vertical godword direction needs to be a primaryfocus of our lives or, I think, we're another danger zone. I think it leastone maybe both of you read Malcolm Gladwells, talking to strangers in oneof his themes. There is, we all have a default to truth. We wetend to believe what people are telling us and he gives all sorts of stories ofwhen that didn't serve people well, but he also says life would be insufferable if we wereall like whatever his example n the book, The guy who broke the was it theEnron case or no, the mure ofthe burning mad yeah. I was Berni MAG guy,who was said from the beginning. Wer He made off is corrupt and he just spentfifteen years of his life, basically trying to tell everybody and he I wasnever going to believe him and really suspicious at least ays glad watlpresents them in the book and- and you see that guy, you think well good forhim, but glawell says if everyone was like that all the time life would be miserable. So we do it sit's natural, an in some ways. It's commendable. We have friends, we webelieve people around us. We don't want to always assume the worst, but that'swhy, as you said just and it's important to attend to our ownconscience, because very few people wake up and are never if you're a Christian. I hopyou now todays the day. I ruin it all to days of the day, I'm I'm going to gofrom a happy marriage, not looking at anything I shouldn't online and I'mgoing to try to find an affair. No, it's all F th, the little you it's, thethe the sociology of broken windows thatwhen you clean up the city, you have to attend to the small things to thegraffiti to the broken windows, because when those things are broken down it,it gives a pervasive environment where greater criminality is liable to happen.It's the same thing in our lives. I do think U Kno! Just back to theoriginal question. I ask then I'll. Let you wrap up this segment with anythingelse. You want to add Colin, but it is important to realize there. There aregood stories out there and they don't get as much press and sometimes we'renot even at liberty to to share them, but I think all three of us know of experiences some we would all knowthe same ones and then each of us would have different instances where we'veseen people in ministry and positions of power who who sin and they do all ofthe steps that are necessary and they...

...do confess and they do step out of theministry for good or for an appropriate season. They do work through apresbytery. They do submit themselves to a board of elders or to an outsidegroup, and they really do get help. And so so there are redemption storieswhere people's sins are forgiven and people learn and grow and understandthe Gospel and new and fresh ways. And that really should be the story for allof our lives. 'CAUSE, our sins may not seem so catastrophic, but all of us sinand then I always want people to know. MaybeI'll write ablog on this sometime, but every year, when I teach my pass forministry class, I give an assignment that people that th their final papers.They have to write on two pastoral ministry heroes, one from the past andone from the present, and so the present is usually a father, a grandfather and R. U F,Pastor Their Childhood Pastor. Most of these people are names that almost noone will know of, and yet he, these men and all f women in the class who writehave different heroes or heroines in their own life. They write about peoplewho are faithfully plotting, doing the right thing, name not in lights and and I still believe that those storiesare far more prevalent than the catastrophic crash and burds. We justit's like the news. The News is never going ta headline with normal good things happening today. Thenews is always oriented to change into bad news. That's what gets ourattention? Not e. nothing went wrong in this person's. You know walk with Jesusthis week. That's not going to show up, and so there are many good stories andit's important for us to put those out there and TGC has done some of that,and even just rememberin our own lives. How many reasons we have to give thingsanything to add to this or subtract coon one thing quickly: Um, I mean you'reright about what news gravitates toward that's as a major factor there Um but h t the normative, doesn't get theattention when things go, the way that they should. But I also think that if most people knew what it was like tobe famous and Christian, they would not want to be famous and they might thinkin the end. They wouldn't want to be Christians and just it. It should not be somethingthat we aspire to. If it's a if it's a burden. The Lordbrings into your life that you are called by God's grace to bear for thegood of the church, then so be it. But it definitely should not besomething that you aspire to, because that attitude itself is going to getyou into trouble, but also, if you knew it just might not be nearly hisappealing, as you think, and so I do think Kevin. If we're looking overallat the differences between high profile Christian leaders, I thinkthere probably are higher attrition rates M for the High Profile Christianeaters and, like I said you add in some of those factors like being on the road.All the time can't be a part of church. Everybody thinks that you're everybodythinks that you're great wherever you go. Those are not what you would do if youwanted to live a quiet and peaceful, dignified life before the Lord and withyour neighbors, and one of the indications I think, is: When does the extra added normal become better than the realordinary normal? So do you desire? Would you rather preach at your owncongregation for your own people, or would you rather preach somewhere elsein front of people? You've never met. H. Are you, of course you know it's fineto be excited to go, speak or excited to to travel at times, but if I findmyself wanting a trip because getting awayfrom M my wife for my family or my ordinarycircumstances is better than living in those circumstances, if I'd rather bespeaking to those people than to speaking to my own people, I'd ratherbe on the road than be at home. All of those our warning signs and one of thethings ive prayed and I'm sure you know I've told the Lord Lord. I'm not sure Imean this, but I know it's a good thing to pray, so I'm going to pray it. Isaid Lord, don't give me success until I don't want it anymore. So may it be that when whatever thatsuccess looks like whatever small fish...

...bowls that we don't want it and weendure and again we you know, John Piper would be the firstif he were here to tell us what his sins are. But but I've seen him standin line for sometimes hours waiting for peoplewho want to talk to Him who want him to sign a book or their Bible, and someonemay look at that and think. That's Christian celebrity. That's Christianfame and only the Lord can know a man's heart if he's waiting there with a lineof people to see him and he's feeling proud. But I know for for someone likePiper and for most of the brothers that I know it takes a great deal of humility toactually do that when you'd be rather doing almost anything else thanstanding there and waiting and having awkward, selfies and Awkward PhoneCalls Awkward Book Signings. And so I I thinkyour right callint. It's not what everyone thinks that it is, and thereal joys in life and ministry are going to be those treasures that youhave with the people that you know in love. Did you come up with thatyourself Kevin just out of the blue? That don't give me success until Idon't want it anymore. As far as I can recall that came OUP with myself. Thatis, that is helpful. I I wrote that down. Iam going to pray that I think that brings a lot of clarity. I'm going totweed Itan either. Do Augustine Luther Chester, fenervinwasiabout Abrahamlincolnyeahmliking to me Uhhuh a at would be is political career yeah. Ifyou found that I stole it from someone, let me know all right. We will thankyou for that, and I do appreciate you guys are good friends and really domean that and hope that you would speak into something in my life if you feltlike Hu some you're different than you were, when you used to go to pizzaranchwith, isn't that Bu t isn't that the mid Western sensibility? I meanwe're just looking for a chance to knock you down, isgess we're justlooking for it. So this is a a different topic. Wetalked about a lot Ho ow how to get at it. whatit seemsokay, let's take our world and let's say it's reformed reforme dish. Take people whobasically agree on really important, theological, tenants, INERRANDC,historic Orthodoxy, calvinist Suteriology, we Wu, saycomplimentarianism, that's a lot to agree on the expositional preaching. You knowthe sort of people that would- or maybe they wouldn't anymore,but you now would would go to t for G- would go to TGC. Just take this kind oftribe of theological agreement with everything out there in the world.That's an awful lot to agree on now. We have talked somewhat on this potcastand more just privately about how much this cultural moment- and even thisecclesiastical moment is made difficult, because even among those who agree on an evangelical reformed is statement offaith. Do not agree on what our biggest challenges might be to that sharedstatement of Faith H. to put it very crassily, are the dangers coming morefrom the left from outside from the culture or thedangers more pronounced from the right? Perhaps within our own churches? Is theneed of the hour to build bridges or to build walls, and you can findscriptural reasons and Metaphorsto do both of those are we team? Do we need team compassion,they're, the ones who want to build bridges and they're the ones who aresaying I, if, if we could just be gentler, more gracious, more winsome,we'd win a hearing, it's the harsh! It's the belligerence! It's the tone!That's driving people away seem compassion, or is I team courage, alook? The the visigoths are at the walls. We better man, the barricades orwe're going to lose our souls we're going to lose this next generation andwhat we need is courage and we need some people to flip over some tablesand to fire some some warning shots and to take out some wolves and some goatsand and let's get on with it- and you can make a scriptural case for that. So I'm going to put you on the spot...

Colin make the case that the biggestdanger for our theological tribe is coming from the left coming from the left all right. Well,you B, you practically quoted me earlier in my blind spots book KavinThin, Oh twenty, fifteen courageous compassion, but I I ho that's right C,I I add commission in there so 'cause. I don't think that most of our issuesare a simple left right binary, but they are more of a triangle and so there's there's an evangelisticfocus. There's a compassion focus, there's a truth, telling focus we'renot typically dealing with that pole, but the reason we the argument that Iwould make for why the biggest fear or why the biggest concerns wouldcome from the left. To answer your question would be because, yes, there are a lot of debates aboutwhat's happening inside the church and yes, there are problems with thingslike white supremacy, explicit white supremacy, racism and things like thatinside the church and historically the dominant message that the churchhears and is catechized that our young people are growing up with is almost exclusively coming from theleft, whether it's they turn on and theywatch the NBA finals, Wheheyr, not they're, they're, going to college andthe training, whether or not in their workplace Um. Just what they'relearning in in public school education growing all the way up. The consistentmessages routinely reinforced through our cultural catcases are coming fromthe left. That's the argument that I would make it's not necessarily theargument that I hold, though that's only if you make me choose. Ithink that is a genuine major problem and I would happily team up withanybody who saw that as a problem and we wanted to work together from aChristian perspective about that problem, and I gave you that one,because I know that we've talked about this sum and m again. I don't know ifwe disagree, but it may just be different things, we're seeing in ourcontext or sensibilities and will come back to that. But Justin. You want totry to make the case that the bigger danger for our teollogical tribe at themoment is from people to the right and perhaps within yeah. I, if you're asking me to makethat case I'll I'll. Do My danceor telling o whether it's yours or not, good forensics class. I think that th, the sins of the leftare more obvious and are more marquis. Sins and thesens of the right are moresubtle, at least to those who are conservatively inclined and thereforebecause they are more subtle, they're harder to discern. It also requireslooking within to see if we are committing any sense of commission oromission. I think that, because a lot of times, those on the right are aimingfor h, good outcomes and hear 'em in interweaving, the political and thetheological, because we want, for example, to see Roe versus waheoverturned. That's that's the policy good. I think that we would agree to.Therefore there can be a temptation that the ends justify the means, and soa subtle, sometimes not so subtle utilitarian ethic comes up play thatend justifies the means and because we are aiming at something virtuous, wecan bypass virtue in order to get there. We can support people who act with vice rather than virtue, and we can also be m. We can assume theGospel and then end up forgetting the Gospel Allas were aiming towardsostensibly righteous aims, and I think that, because of the subtlety of howthat can work because of the goodness of some of those aims we can be takenin and not even realize that we're the proverbial frog boiling in the pot ofwater h to realize that we are giving up the the ship to mix a couple ofmetaphors and introducing all sorts of problems and to compromise Oky. So Coiana Follo. Let me well let me oallright. Let me try out this and then con. You can respond to it, because I'mthinking about this all the time- and I maybe I just need to like you saidabout John Piper- I need to put some some thoughts on paper to find out whatI think and clarify. But one of my working supposition is that, because the threat well number one, Ithink the you can disagree with me. I think the biggest threats are coming from...

...what you describe calling from theentire cultural catacesis call. It woke capitalism, it's not just Hollywood,it's not just the academy. It's now sports. It's now everything that we see in the air thatwe breathe there as a good article. todaymaybe. Send it to you guys why theyoung hate the Tories. So it's it's in a British context and it's morepolitical than religious, but it dove tails with that, and you coulddefinitely apply it to in American situation of why the Conservatives inBritain are finding that younger and younger people. Absolutely don't justdisagree. They they hate what they stand for and there's a whole number offactors there and again we're not equating conservative, politicallyalways with conservative theologically, but there's some overlap in theanalysis. So I think that part of what's happening is as Christian sense,that they are more and more inhabiting a hostile place where theirviews are held with. Not just you know, dismissal but genuinederision. It is bound and is already thenprompting a viseral sort of response that this is really threatening and we'renot making up the threat and because that's there were we're bound to haveat times maybe an overreaction or to want to defend what we ought to properly defendand do it in ways that either are ineffective, unpersuasive or we end updefending, sometimes the indefensible or we findcobeligerents h with those who are in no ways really friends to Christianity.All of those are problematic, but I still maintain that the cultural airthat we're breathing is a roding Christian faith from theleft and, as that is already infiltrating, the church will continueto make life difficult for those of thuse who believe in this centrality ofthe Gospel neerancy of the Scriptures and testing everything against the wordof God. So Colin, how do you respond to that agree? Disagree, NUANCE AD orsubtract. I think I can agree with you while adding some depth so you'resaying I'm shallow, you know you. I implied it. I didn't se Yeah Ighokay sotake three different places that I've lived as my main point. Cavin is that I don'tthink all of these cultural conversations are national, so I thinkthat's an important grid, but I think they can be localized. So, let's takeSouth Dakota, my first eighteen years, if you're really obsessed with racialissues, especially black white issues in South Dakota, that's probably goingto be a strange emphasis of your ministry. Now there's going to be different,empasies such as native American concerns that aren't as much of apressing issue in Alabama where I live now: That's just black whiteracialdynamics, not a major part of life and ministry in South Dakota, okay,fast forward to Evanston Illinois. If you're not really concerned aboutwhat you described: Well: capitalism, Cultural Marxism, ind, educationalinstitutions, AH AL intersectionality. If you're not concerned about that inEvanson Illinois, then I don't K. I don't know how you can be faithfullydiscipling people that are coming through your church or through yourcampus ministry. That's a hit's, a major problem, I'm going to leaveoutmost of my years n in Wetin, because I didn't really understand wheatingvery well for the yearthat I lived there. I never was a part of aChristian cal stream ye well Tae. Thank you. Just and technically, as CarlHenry said, I lived in a suburb of wheating oot dream. You could just know.Watin was a suburb of South Halen, you dotch, that's a accle. Everythingrevolves around Amsterdam, okay, so and then in Birmingham. If you don't careabout racial issues, something is something is off. Given that historyther. That's one thing: it's we're not always having national conversations.The local emphasis can change. The other point I want to make is th. Idon't the Bible. Does I'm not so much interested in the left right pilarity,though that can be helpful? Sometimes I'm not entirely dismissing that. Imentioned earlier my m my triangular approach, but then I also want to. Iwant to point out that I think and...

...cabin justand you guys, can push backon me in this 'cause. I don't want to overemphasize something here, but Ithink on the main, the Bible is more concerned about what happens insideGod'speople than what happens outside. It seems to assume the outside is going to be hostile andthey're going to be problematic for us, but that it's not insurmountable. IfGod's people will simply be God's people, if they will just trust God andthey will live with holiness, there won't be any problem there they canwithstand whatever the world brings to them. I think that's, an old testamentand New Testament dynamic. So, instead of saying left and right, I typicallywant to say three ways: compassion, courage, C, Commission, that's just myway of describing it, but I also want to say we should be more concerned thatGod's people are living faithfully. Then we should be about the threat thatthe world brings on God's people, though I don't want to make that's, nota sharp economy, 'cause. Of course, what happens in the world is going toaffect t God's people, but that goes back to what your point is earlier.Kevin. The confusing part for me is watching Christians team up withnonchristians because they imagine going after common enemies inside thechurch. That's what's confusing to me right nowand yes, I I do think that we genuinely have a lot of disagreements. INIDETHEchurch, but, what's confusing to me, is how we so immediately gloss over allthe common ality that you started this with Kevin and latch onto some of thosesupposed or alleged disagreement. Some of them are real. Some of them aresupposed in a legend and that we use outside nonchristian voices to be ableto to sort of trump that I didn't mean to use that specific word, but I meantrump, the unity of er. You know just a Burb, it's just a verb mean, but thatis the atmosphere where things are so politicized that itseems like our trinitarian unity. Our unity in Christ doesn't seem to matter.If you disagree on a political issue, it seems then, all of a sudden you havemore in common with atheists, who don't don't believe and gun at all, becauseyou're o your focus on politics, just an what do you? What do you think Bushpush you're interested in that line ofreasoning? Same Yeld, James recently did a a letters, an litter gpce alongthose lines, which I think s Anialy, woped, yes yeah, and for listeners who who like to hearColin Hanson Muse about these topics, tual rot a book for crossway Ti oblinespots, O on this issue of of seeing things from only one perspective common.I I think you're your right Um in the main. Let Me Complexifi it evenfurther. What do you do talking about within a single church? I think thatthere's a significant generational divide there. So you know in the Church setting that I'm a part ofam I more concerned about threats on the right or the left. I think it depends on if you're talkingabout the sixty year, old guy who's been there for thha years versus theseventeen year old who's going off to college in a year. You know to me: I'mnot super worried about the sixty year old with with certain temptations and thesame way that I am with seventeen year old. So I agree with you the more thatwe try to present. Just you know, is it yes is it? No? Is it left isn't right?What's the one thing happening, I think I agree with Kevin Ther, but I agreewith the complexification once you get into real life and you actually askwhat it's like in a local church setting. It depends a lot upon age andgender and geography and in history, experience suspicions,dispositions, Rase, all of those sort of things yeah and Leven, I'm sort ofAouer one one word there ecause. You really raise a an issue that allows me to new onsomething. Let's take my own church as an example of what we went through inthis last summer on racial issues mentioned that, of course we're inBirmingham. So the racial issues are going to be very significant with ourhistory, and we had some people respond in ways that I thought were extremelyunhelpful from the right Um and we we we've tried to address those issues asmuch as possible. Bu. What I said to other elders was for every one person that I seespinning way off to the right. I bet we have five or six people whoare more likely to spin off to the left, and that's because our demographic,even in this M in this Birmingham Environment is actually is very young,and a lot of them are very much oriented toward a lot of the justicemessages, some of which are really good, some of which are very unhelpful, andso, even in that, even that environment...

...is I'm looking as a pastor. I'mthinking. Yes, of course, I'm really upset to watch some of my churchleaders be enamored with neo confederate writings, I'm very upsetabout that, but then I'm also afraid even moreafraid. Just numerically speaking of people, I see where wow this is simplygone altogether into left wing politics, and I don't even see the Gospel hereany more, so I I think that's lost Kevin and how we and how we play thesethings out on twitter and how we play these things out on websites. I don'tund, I guess that's what I'm so confused about. So hel has justice saidhelp set of Strayo it you straight, and I think that's really good, and Iappreciate what you said calling it helps me clarify my earlier point about.You know, threats from the left on the outside you W. I should have made clear, I'mnot thinking so much of boy what's happening in at Princeton and that Sfusall alarmed but more. Where do we see these ideas, whethertheir formal theories or they're, simply the air that we breathe or themessages that we receive every commercial break? How are they beingunwittingly assumed in the church? So I totally agree. You see it in Paul's letters. What he'sconcerned about is not so much now he's concerned. Youknow you see this in revelation of persecuting government but they're mostconcerned with the church, then standing fast to that, not capitulatingnot giving in so the church very much has to. But if I can footnote my book,which sorry wasn't by Crossway, but that one no one reads anymore: Whywe're not emergient? You know I wrote about the seven letters of the sevenchurches. I think that's very instructive. Not what I wrote, butthose first H, n chapter two and three in revelation because they do describe-and you see the example you see. Jee says he does not talk to every churchin the same way, and so he can say to Ephisis. You'velost your first love. That's the message. Some churches need to hear you can say it's: It's love for theloss, love for the Lord love for evangelism, all those things, but thenthere's Diatyra and Pergamum, which areovertolerant this S. Jesus has this oges you you tolerate that woman, Jezzlyou're, too tolerant of things. That's not a message that many people aregoing to hear. So it takes a lot of pastoral wisdom and nuanceand. Sohere's a recurring theme on this potcast and it's the blessing and thechallenge of our digital age, because you teetyou blog at a one time you're talking toeverybody, but you can't help but have in your mind what you see in Birmingham.What what you know? Maybe I grew up with in the R C A or what Justin seegso we're all bringing to our message, which ostensibly is going everywhere,our own set of concerns and issues, and so it means that as readers, we need tobe discerning as writers. We need to be careful, but it also presents thechallenge that so often we get just using a royalwe one track mind andhow we read things and there's there's a way to be helpful. We've talked aboutthis too there's a way to be sensitive. Okay. How would someone who's been avictim of this? Read it how woul a single person? How would a marriedperson? How would how a black white nail female there there's a certainsensitivity, that's appropriate and then there's also a place where we canno longer write or communicate with any real, verve or unction, because we'reassuming that everyone is going to bring to bear their own hurts, and soin one of my many aborted blocgposts Justin may have more than I do. We maybe running neck and neck. Perhaps Johna then leman is up there too, althoughhe's he's winning with aboarded tweets world's worst tweet draft thanks justin for sitting straight on that leas, he circulates them beforehand, Yeasakpublic, but that was you know, block posted I iou to finish. Sometime isjust saying we expect our communication to be at once universal and at the same time,so personal that it's as if you're my pastor speaking to me, so people willsay well. Would you is that how you would speak to someone who has hadsuffered? You know a loss by suicide and their co? L! No, but I'm not I'mnot having a counseling session with that person right now. So all of thiscomes into. I think there is it's incomment upon us as writers, butit also means a certain realism, as readersto understand, in probably meansfor someone like you in Your Position...

Of Gospel Coalition Collin and just inits crossway. I'm sure you have to think about because you you are tryingto reach a wide audience trying to gauge what is the need for thiscultural moment and h. You know I haven't, set you straight or figured itout, I'll pray for you, and you know that I'll tell you when there's thingsI like, and I've told you en there's things I did like so thank you, brother, O hat more withcalling than with me. Well, that's cust your books. You know they're alreadyout and they're. Look it's part of my job description. Idon't mind it. I expect that if you're tryou're exactly right Kevin about theInternet, I I think we underestimate what what role that plays here. It'snot going to be possible to make everybody happy, but at the same timethat shouldn't be your goal is to make everybody unhappy. So there's a there'sa medium in there of you're not trying to offend people, butsome people. It's it's just going to happen. Ifyou're doing what you think is the right thing to do if you're,recognizing that threats come from multiple dorections last question, tying it all together,books give me two or three well just limit itto three. We could come up with thirty, but books that you think would behelpful in forming a political philosophy. These can be Christianbooks, Christian classics, new books or you know, could just be classic ofmoral, political philosophy, um any a anything you want. So don't limityourself to you know they have to be three famous Christian books. But ifsomeone said you know, a recent college Grad likes to read hey what what aresome books that you think would be good for me, as I try to formulate my ownway of thinking as a Christian about politics, and it's probably going to besomewhat American centric B'cause. That's who we are where we are, give metwo or three books, Justin Yeah, I think uh, one that I wouldstart out with, would be a book that I think it's still available print ondemand, but it's great foresters. The contested public square is goodbook thecrisis of Christianity and politics put up by ivp several years ago, and Ithink one thing that's nice about that book is that it gives a historical overview and introduces readers to the Great ClassicWorks from Plato's Republic. T Augustine, city of God- and you know, moves eventually to medievalthinkers and reformation and natural law and Religious Liberty Os. Just areally nice introduction to who the main players are in the history writtenfrom a confessionally Christian perspective. Another onewould be David and I'm sure I'm going to say his last name wrong, becauseI've never had to say it out loud before, but quasis, Canadian, reformedpolitical theorist, political visions and illusions. A really interesting helpful book,working through all sorts of things, from progressivism to Birki andconservatism, to socialism, to communism and looking at how all ofthem as secular theories, fall short of the glory of God, and I have elementsof idolatry and shows how the Gospel offers a better answer. A really. Ithink nuanced interesting informed book just in Whati had I've heard that bookmentione a lot- and I admit I haven't read it would so it sounds like a bookI would really like, and then I I have one or two little yellow flags going up. Do youthink I would like that book? I think you'd probably have littleyellow flags going up on it, but I think you probably like it aswell. I think one of the UH potential critiques of it is that itcan make it seem as if, even though all of these ideologies fall short of theglory of God, maybe some of them fall further short than others. I think hebelieves that I don't know how clear that always is, but I think forsomebody of his knowledge and background as a a Neociperian. I thinkhis analysis will make you think, and I think you'd probably enjoy it. Even ifyou had a few qualms does, does he present what he thinks is the biblicalBotel with no idolatry and has that model ever been a governing philosophy on the planet? I don't think that he thinks that wehave achieved utopia um to what degree he lays out his alternative perspectiveand how realistic it is, I'm not sure...

...yeah. I wasn't going Utopia S. I askedthe question in an unhelpful way. So, okay, we'll we'll talk about that andI've- I mean you and and others that I know and trust really like the book.You just are getting my one, my yellow flag as I've heard ofyouth. Sometimes if so, I'm not crtiking the book t at I haven't read:It is if it's as, if we can, we can transcend all actual human forms of government. U,you know it's like the famous quip, whether it's true or not, when, when d James Kennedy, someone didn'tlike evangelism explosion and he said well, I like my way of doing evangelsand better than your way of not doing evantelism. So it's sort of H. Okay,what is the you know, de Democracy is, is the worst form of government, exceptfor all the others. I've heard that quite from Kennedyattributed to Moody Yeah, I know I've heard it too. Ithink woody got it from Kennedy: Yeah fes people yeah, I think itoriginally. It was luther, though Lincoln before that yeah, okay, I'msorry Justin you get a third one. Justin Uh was anybody else going to say, conflictdivisions by Volue een that Oh Yor, you on ThomasSoul is not a Christian at least an Orthodox one, but I thinkthat that book is very helpful and maybe an interesting place to start ifsomebody doesn't necessarily want a Christian perspective, but once to seea relatively non polemical, even handed book that tries to lay out. Why do wedisagree, and why is it that the Democrats tend to line up on one set ofissues and Republicans on other set of issues, and he argues that thereis adifference between the constrained vision and the unconstrained vision andthat we simply have different presuppositions about what is entailed by freedom and byjustice and by power and equality? We were operating with differentdefinitions and different ways to get to our desired ends. It's just a veryinteresting book. Soul can be apolemical in some of his other worksand he's kind of become a punching bag on some of the racial issues, but inthis book in particular, I think it's just a really nice introduction doesn'tsay everything that needs to be said, but I think it ends up being eyeopening for the different presuppositions that play among variousparties when it comes to political ideology. That's great that that leads into mylist and we'll give Collin. Then the last along those same lines recommend vallavine's book. The greatdebate, Edwin Burke, Thomas Payne, and the birth of right and left similar Pedagogi as the Sol book exceptLen, is looking at just two thinkers, Edmonburge and Thomas Payne, whooverlapped and interacted somewith each other. Now, Americans will hear ThomasPayne immediately think common sense and he's the hero who sparkes therevolution. When you read Thomas Paine, you quickly h probably want to sift out some of thedraws, along with you know, holding out to be a champion of independence, atleast on this side of the pond, because h IV all makes the case that really thebirth of the left is more with the ideas of Thomas Payne. An the birth ofright is with EDMINBURGE. So again, it's just very helpful and h.He he's not arguing one way or another people read his books, know he's a thoughtful conservative or Centraright sort of voice, but I think that's a very good historical book tounderstand and gives you a sense for where right and left come from.Ultimately, though, you know t Y, they do come from the French assembly andwhere they were sitting on the right or on the left. That's why we speak ofthose directions and to make things very confusing. In America, the the redin the blue should really be switched. Blue was the was the color for the theconservative, royalists right and red has always been the color for liberalsred as the color of communism, socialism. So, whoever first put thered blue map up with Republicans and Democrats have not done us anyhistorical favors and then a Christian book. Again, I don't know Hohow to say his last name for sure David Inis, I nnes teaches at the King'sCollege Christ in the kingdoms of men. I believe, he's also ordained in theOrthodox Presbyterian Church. This came out just last year. I think again, Idon't agree with every last thing in the book I's a bit more critical aboutClassic Liberalism Tha than I might be,...

...but classic liberalism fair to becriticized, but I think if someone was just saying I'd like from you know a a reformed voice, h h, howwould I begin to think of what a political philosophy might look like?That's a good book to start, and I found it helpful and then a third bookI tried to think of what would be a classic. What would besomething that would be helpful, SOS? I thoughtabout maybe Edminburg reflections on the revolution of France, but I'll gowith the federalist papers. Every American should read at leastsome of the federals papers and something is wrong with our educationalsystem if you can get through college really, if you get through highschool, even and you've, never read any of the federalist papers. Is that youcalling none, never non the history, major an you'? Never so never sign! Youknow it's it's a r graphic novel version, though that Justin there's, probably an audibleversion that you could listen to drew or a Wacopedia, page or Wicapedi pagebut e. So these are h. A series of I should know the exact number off handof its ninety or what it is. How many articles that Hamilton and James Madison John Jpublished it's on the ratification of the federalconstitution, but it gets into political theory and again it's notthat you say this is lifted from the pages of scripture. Obviously it's notit's it's drawn from all different sources, but H, it's ver, eighty fivefedarles papers. Thank you just and just looke that up, I was pretty closeoff the top of my head. It's it's really helpful. We just say:Okay here or here are some of the key founderstrying to think not from scratch, but a new nation with centuries of natural law, of BasicProtestant assumptions and new enlightenment philosophy, how do and ideas of classicalrepublicanism from Rome. How did they think about government and whether youagree or disagree with all of it? I think that's extremely helpful,especially it is for understanding our American system coin. You get the last word. What areyour three books? You get to go last at one hour and twelve minutes and by theway Kevin prices right rules you went over, so you lost t all right Um. Istart with two essays. I teach teach a class on Christ and culture for mychurch and we cover politics in there, two essays or two documentsizesignLincoln's, second and augural, address and King's letter from Birminghamjailthink the two best examples of public theology in American history,which is notable given the ambiguities we have about um about king's life andLincoln's faith, N Orthodoxy. So still, nevertheless, as documents. They arenot inspired in that Biblical sense, but they are inspiring in that sense ofunderstanding the essential elements of that sort of a rebirth of freedom thatwas provided through the through the conflagration of the civil war and thenultimately, renewed and through the civil rised movement so related to that a commen tailor branch is American, theKing Years Trilogy for shaping a lot of my my perspective on twentieth centurypolitics, at least in the the civil rights movement and there's a onevolume, small version thers. I didn't know that which I've read well yeah,the the three big I like twenty four hundred pages. So that's that's! That'sa wise! It's a wise decision, H, okay, so the three books I wanted to mention.First, one L be Senator B, those weren't, even the books. You're. U gotto go lastojustokay, okay, the Uh want to mention Ben SAS's book them whywe hate each other and how to Helica. As from two thousand and eighteen treason. I mentioned senators asses two reasons, one because it is easy to sitin the distance and to Muse on these things. I have a lot of respect forpeople who are inside trying to implement them even undervery easy to criticizecircumstances like Senator Sass is in so that's the first book also. Thesecond reason for that is because I resonate strongly with his midwesternlocalism, so his Friday night in the high school jym feeling that hedescribes with community could not resonate more strongly with me, andthat is the kind of Po Politics and community. I was catechized intowithout knowing it and remains very,...

...very much my political philosophy todayof th the strength of local communities. That's the Tokvilian part of me that Ididn't realize another thing I wasn't decined until college Um. Second Book Iwant to mention is James Davison hunters to change the world actuallyedited a book. Five years ago called revisiting faithful, presents to changethe world and almolar Gregforester Karonalis FOMOPR DANL, strange hundredBaker. Number of other people contributed to that book. I don't know if I'm still convincedwith his philosophy of top down politics, about the the influence of the elitesand the need to be a faithful presence among the elites to bring politicalchange. What I will say is that I don't know where to find this and his cannon,but in personal conversation with Professor Hunter, he really did morethan anybody else to change my emphasis on politics, away from campaigns andindividual politicians and more toward the atmospheric conditions of oursociety, and that has been a godsent to methrough the last six years to not see these things as mere manifestations ofa candidate or a moment, but something that's much bigger Nto our culture. Weeebeen talking to three of us about David Brooks's, recent essay in theAtlantic about our cultural moment and politics, and that would be a goodpracticed. Example of what I've e learned from Hunter and tried toimplement. Last book, then nobody'll be surprised to hear me recommend therighteous mind by Jonathan Heit, quite if you're a paster dealing with theseissues politically within your church. Even though height is not a Christian,not a believer in God, and not a conservative, he will give you a lot ofammunition to understand the way people think tribally and the way they thinksort of Um, instinctively and intuitively, and that will that willhelp you to navigate very difficult situations. So yeah. Those are those are my threebooks, a couple of essays and a trilogy of books. Yeah. You mentioned severalthings that you assigned for your Sunday school class and other books youhad edited to get to as a breaface to your book says very, very sneaky. We wehear many comments that people want to hear more from Justin Taylor on thispodcast and H, Justin any last word of wisdom. You have for us no other than thank you mom for writingin to complain to Caven everyiand. That's why People Wun here uthe dry,jokes, that we all know so well or merely everybody's being introduced tothem. Now, yes, the tweets or the emails of the text and you go wait. Wasthat a joke, I'm not sure, and then was t that joke on me. So, thank you if youhave on to, they usually are indeed all right. Thank you, man forjoining the discussion again to thank you to all of our listeners, check usout and Youre various streaming APS or hotcasts and subscribe and like us, andif you don't like us, just just pray for us, then all right Wehopto see you again next time until then glorify God, andjoin porever and read agood book.

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