Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode 19 · 1 year ago

'Bavinck: A Critical Biography,' with Dr. James Eglinton

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of Life and Books and Everything, Dr. James Eglinton joins Kevin to discuss his latest work, Bavinck: A Critical Biography.

Listen in for a fascinating look at the history of the modern Reformed tradition as told through the story of one of its greatest theologians, Herman Bavinck. Topics include Bavinck's Dutch Calvinistic context, his desire to apply Reformed orthodoxy to modern dilemmas, his association with the women's rights movement, if Bavinck was an evangelical, and his children and grandchildren's involvement in the Nazi resistance.

This episode of Life and Books and Everything is brought to you by Crossway. The Crossway title we want to highlight in this episode is Concise Theology by J. I Packer. Theology is important for the Christian life. And though it is marked by many complex terms and doctrines, there is yet what J. I. Packer calls “the permanent essentials of Christianity.” This concise introduction to these essential doctrines distills theological truths so both scholar and layperson alike can grow to treasure the unchanging pillars of the Christian faith.

Resources mentioned:

Bavinck: A Critical Biography by James Eglinton - 40% off HERE 

Reformed Dogmatics (4 Volume Set) by Herman Bavinck

The History of Scottish Theology, Volume I: Celtic Origins to Reformed Orthodoxy by David Fergusson and Mark Elliot

Greetings and salutations welcome tolife and books and everything I'm Kevin Deon. Unfortunately, I'm not joined bymy good friends, just a daylor and Colen Hanson, who are otherwise I'mdisposed they're, not disposed ordepost just predisposed, but I am joined by a new friend whol, introduceit just a second James Eglanten, and he is here, I'm very excited to talk abouthis new book, an biography on Hermin Bozig. But first let me mention that today's episode is sponsored byCrossway Er, great cool ees, always for crossway's partnership with his hotcast,and we want a highlight today: Ji Packers Book, Concise Theology, as ourlisters will know, Doctor Packer, passed on into glory earlier thissummer and crossway has a wonderful treat for us. Ninety four chapters inthis book- Concise Theology- so unfortunately, Jimpacker never nevergot to do his systematic theology, but this is a great way to get in verybitesize nuggets some of his insights onto the core doctrines of the face socheck that UJPACKER concites thealegy. Thank you to Crosswav, Doctor Edlinton, I presume nice to have you with us. James is thedo I have this right. The Meldrum, senior lecture and reformed theology-that's correct is that how you say it or Thanksgivin Yeah at the Universityof Edinburgh? So thank you so much for being with Tas. First of all, reallycongratulations on a great book. I M I'm not a flatterer. I really lovethe book and I've been really looking forward to talking to you about it. Ianticipate that you will have lots of opportunities to do. Interviews likethis Ha've already done a print interview on Gospel Coalition, and Iknow others are lined up to interview you. It's it's very readable. It's wellresearched, it's timely! So thank you for that. I'd love for you to we've just got toknow each other over email over the summer, but for my own sake and for ourlisteners, tell us just a little bit about your background, your family,your education, what you're doing at the Esteemed University of Edinburghthese days sure so I am Scottish. I grew up in the highlands of Scotland very much between two cultures and soon. One side of my family, English speaking Wull and Scotts, and anotherside of my family Gallac speaking Heprivian Scotts, really a you speakGaelic. I do yeah. I do speak with home with my kids D with my wife Sopat of us.This one percent of the population Ho Ho speak at Stilyeah. I grew up in theFree Church of Scotland, whe E. I spent my formative years so it presbyterinedenomination. I I came really interested in theologytowards the end of my high school years and so my last year of high school, Itook religion, philosophy glass, where I started to to read all of this stuffthat I that completely blew my mind that started setreating Calvin, then inhigh school and never really leap back. So this class was tolt y retired pastorfrom my denomination to become a high school religion teacher. So so yet he otmeinto engaging my mind. I guess with withserious theological sources after that ive studied lot at theUniversity of Eberdin, Oea and M. I did that as a second of background to going onto Samonary wasmy plan. So in my Presbyterian tradition, if you want to go toseminary and if you think of pastoral ministry afterwards and Youre StillQuet, young and you're encouraged to a degree in something else, first andthen go onto your theology, training ecided, O he studid law and then wentfrom there to the Free Church, college and Adira non was non on, isedanbreathteological seminary and right, ploden under some great felogencs andOl wiklouds teaching systematic stend. So that was SOM, really formative,privilege Um! After that, I then did my phd at the University of Edira.Onherman mavink worked for three years parttime. While I was doing that for afree church, comvegation in the middle of Edinrug and Um. When that ALfinished hen I finish myphd. We then moved to the Netherlands, so wewent go bhome with the Dutch thing, so I got a Posta at theological universityin Campin, which is a beautiful Dutch towne. It's for hemof. Having spent afew deae had life, so I spent three years there really happily en immersingmyself in Dutch language and culture and books and making great friends and Um.So I worked there for three years: Ding...

Research on aving, Libraham Kiprer wasalso looking alon of the history of connections between Scottish reformdtheology and Dutch reformd Thologie. So I was just anern inparadise. I reallyreally left my time there and after that I I was appointed to the positionI now have at the University of Adin Rus. So we've been back in Edbrough forabout seven years and a lot of the fruit of those years hasbeen the biography that we're talking about today. That's fantastic and H:I'm not the one percent who speaks Galic, but maybe the one percent whohas all three of these volumes, how Nice Thet History of Scottish theologyvolume one we'll get this in our our show notes.But it's like a hundred dollars a volume. So I don't know how if they'llfly off the shelves, but thank you you have I'm reading through calum one. Youhave a chapters and your chapter and here on yeah, so it's SOC connectionsawout some connections between reformed Christians in Scotland, with France, ndwith the Netherlands in the early modern period, so sixteent seventeenthcenturies. So it was really fun to put that together and just work out howeven thisthat particular period and the reformed faith, especially this is anjust, very different um of social situations in those threecountries and the Netherlands' it's really flourishing and they havegreatuniversities in Scotland is very difficult politically at that point forreformed Christians and lots of them are exele to the Netherlandsan writesome great boogs, while they're there, and then the French have their ownstruggles that are very particular as well and with lack of toleration ofprossents unperformed Christians in particular, so they have reallyenjoyable chapter to write, TAT's really interesting. I remember when Iwas doing my h research on Witherspoon. I think it was Phil Riken in one of hischapters on Protestant colastacism. Of course he did his doctor work on Boston,but he said for much of the T E early Scottish history. They were importersrather than exporters of the reformed theology. Do you think? That's true M. I think early reformd theology inEurope is it's just t e melting pots, and it was very normal for quite a longtime that when you went to study, you were just that one city in one countryfor Thehall of your education obscaled peregrination. So you moved aroundGermany and Switzerland and France and the Netherlands. So there are lots ofmoving pieces to that puzzle, but yeah a lot of EFORF thology was importedinto Scotland, but also you know made into its own thing as well to thisdistinct Scottish n rerform tradition. So how did you get interested in Herman,bovink sure so um? So when I was a student at seminary,that was just around the time that the English translations of babixsperformed ofmatics were being released, and he was this new figure on thehorizon and M Donald mcladma systematics professor caught him quitea lot and occasionally would drop and things into Lectureis, like peopleshould start thinking about doing thehdsm Haing and a few people who werequit. Formative of my life of that points also made that suggestionindependently a new Carl Truman, quite well from my undergrand days inAberdeen, because we went to the same church. So he was U, professor at theUniversity. He also suggested to me: I you think about working on Baving, I'mDavid Ferguson of the University of Metam Bre, who I ended up doing myphdunder also suggested independently. So Am providentially t the having foundme, I guess see, is coming at me from every angle and just when I discoveredhis works, its just great theology, it's wrech es so profined in hisreflections, some scripture and so committed to the Bible, but also sorich, an his understanding of historical theology and this ability togive you this big picture of the history of any particular idea thanChristian thiology and hove developed in the Patrisian period, the medievalera. What happens to be their information? One of the bage challengesthat enlightenments and circularizationamopposed to thatparticular doctrine. And how do you articulate THY doctrine? Toda Bavin isjust incredible: He's he's like a hot cooflies above the forest of Christiantheology. You can see every tree and you can see the little forest thickinZomin and you see th the tiny mice running, underneath the leaves as welljust the way that he does all of this. As I really blew my mind, 's justfantastiic stuff to discover- and so I did my phd on him on his understandingof atetrimity- is revealed in the world, an the general revelation and of God ina way that still keeps the trinity th, three and one way of being for thepersons of the Godhead thet still keeps that unique to God, but none theless isreveald even in the world in which we live. So he has a really interestingcreative. The kind of that so I got into his theology like that,and the biographical interest grew out...

...of that as well Um. So when I startedreading, not just aving, but also what other people have written about him, Ifind that for a lot of the twentieth century, people have written not aboutone Herman having, but about two YEASK AE s Te's a big big theme in your book.What wh? What are the two bobinks and why are you disappointed with or tryingto critique that historiography, yes of the two Bavingsidea is when you look athis life, you find, I think, it's a really fascinating figure. You findsomeone who has thoroughly committed to his own theologically conservative,arthodox Calvinis tradition, but who also is a really enthusiastic involved.Participants in modern culture and in Modern Science, Mon scholarship, modernpolitics, moder journalism and a lot of people who read Bavingk in thetwentieth century thought that that combination was unusual and thatthere's no way that one person could be going in those two directionsintentionally. So a lot of people who Ren Bac acrossedthe twentieth century spoke about two Babings, one being the Orthodox avinkand the other being the modern Mavink, and he was portrayed for quite a longtime as a Jacaline hid figure in reform theology and someone who's just prushedand puled between two opposing desires and can never choose which one hereally wants to be, whether he wants to run but the modern crowd or you know,go back to the seventeenth century with all the the solidly performers people.So I the Mar I read Bapbin the Mor. I thought this just doesn't stack up whenyou really get into the details of his thoughts. He has ways of one thing tobe an Orthodox calvinist in the modern world and the understood orthodoxy issomething that is expressed and that carries on throughout history and thedevelops anthat actually needs to be expressed.Unarticulateds an each new phase of history, an as culture develops as well.You have to keep on pushing orthodoxyou forward into it. So I started to seethat really the two bavings approached to reading him and trying to make senseof his thought just doesn't work. So my first Bo pushed back pretty hardagainst that, but the first beot wasn't really on hislife hen. So what does it look like for one person to train live that kind of alife where you're in Orthodox calvinist, but your you've got a finger and everypie n your train to engage with everything around you. It was more bu tthe workings of his theology that allowed him to want to be theologicallywho he was, but within methers. This biographicalclaim that was in my first br ot of the PSE tthesis, which is that there's onlyone Herat aing rather than too so- that set up t e the neet for there to be afellow up, which would I really have to be a biography yeah. So we've donebaving the theology. What do we have to say inthat light about BAVRINC, the theologian or Baving, the human being?What is what is a life? That's straying to do this look like, so how was it because your yourtraining is now systematics an in historical tholog and history? Theythey intermingle but you're, a lecturer in systematic ealogy. That's yourexpertise and you're doing history very well. So what was the process like anddid you have to learn new skills or you were pretty well into the sources andknew what you were doing from Your Phd Work? Yeah. It's really observant question aswell, so I think so a few things really helped me and take on this probject onewas actually I go back into my own Balgraphia bit duing a law degree as mypreparation from ethiology degree, because part of why I chose thatsubject and in Scotlan you don't have to do you know prelaw and then go ontothe Ugd. In Scotland you go staight until e eighteen years old, so m,really dracking ont, a very early T, part of why I chose to the degreeitself as a subject was that it was almost like a liberal arts degree ND.If you study law, you do legal philosophy, jurisprudence and that's agood traiding for something like systematic theology. You do a lot oflegal history and that Trainso you in hishistorical research. You know youpick up at some pieces of Latin, so you do all these things that areactually very usefull. You do public speaking which for me, that was onlythe useful thing thinking of about bring in the seminary so ad. Thistraiving an he history in the first place that I acquired through my mthrough mythiology degree, I'm an going through seminary, ided less ofCharchistory in Los of historical theology. Anyway, a myphd was, I think,somewhere in that amorphoss owned between systematictheology of the storiocotheology. So the way that Ha, my supervisorencouraged me to think bout. Doing a doctrite- and I do this with all of Mmy n PSD students, as I you Ding historical theology, PhD as a steppingstone hanted in your own systematics, your own constructive feeology have alater stage, but before you do that...

...step into a master's workshop and spendthree years justtrying to learn how they craft what they do. So take take afew years and become an expert interpreter of someone who has all ofthese skills in a fully developed way and just learne to think their thoughtsafter them learn an how their minds worked and the kind of contexts thatthey worked in en how all of those factors come together. Se, for me, that kind of training wassystematic theology and that I was tracing out avings approach to doingtheology in a systematic way and also trying to say something constructive onthat basis and but is also deeply historical at thesame time, Setin Eis, blessed to have um kind of trading that I want to passon to other students. That set me up pretty well to do the kind ofhistorical work that ive done. The biography also had a very good menture, an Alisin Gar Harricg from the the Fre University of Amsterdam, an also thethological university in Campin, and so I got to know him pretty well when Iwas teeing PhD and he's bigame a really valued mentorin friend, he is theNetherland's top historian, O neocalvinism Bavinkan Piper and thewhole tradition. So when I went to Campin to do my polstock, it wastospend three years working with George, which was also a muss ov ways likebeing an apprentice in t e Mester's work shop. It was. It was a hugeprivilege to learn from them to spend three years talking, Boto, thinkhistorically out, O wite history and so t at that was really wonderful,enjoyable. Experience that as think equipped me and gave me these gills othat's Fany at maybe im that there's also lots of other stuff. In terms of t e expect of your question. How do youdo work like this s in those three years in the Netherlands? I spend lotsof time in the batic. Arin are ives in reading papers and rdeenky excellent bynow, or already was because of the PhD. Did you enjoy that get your fingernailsdirty and to these old archival sourte Eah it was. It was just the a labor ofLove Tas, it was so fascinating and it was like having another world to escapeinto o Youd, just lip into this room and open up these old handredenjournals and letters, and then you've got the newspaper next to Yeur from theday that that was written and you are just transported into the nineteenthcentury and so an such a fascinating hstorical period as well and so INA way.I feuht realy sad to finish the book, although as glad to get it done areally excited about it getting out so people who can read it, but I loved andmy imagination, I guess inhabiting tnot world in that period was it was soimmensely enjoyable Ns to follow so many interesting developments in inWestern society and politics and the academy and to fallen off through oneone, hystorical lector such an interesting person and ha his lifedeveloped in that context. Yeah, it's really fascint let' I'lljump into the biography. I have way Mork. I have twenty six questions. Wewon't get through. All of these, let you say early on that in the early twentieth century.This is early in your bigraphy twentiethcentury. Netherlands. Bobving was a household name. Now we use thatexpression sometimes, and it's often not really true. I mean John Piper Tim Keller, our householdname well in in certain very specific kinds of households, but I get thesense. He really was a household name in the Netherlands. So is that true-and I assume it is- you said it why? How could that be the case? Not justyou know, nurdy theology guys, but everyone knew Herman boving of him yeah.He was a hosehold name of his own context and his name still has recognition even outside of theologicalcircles in the Netherlands today, in a way that even surprised me when I firstmoved there, so I was once getting a haircut in the Netherlands. This is completely true story and the Barber asked me s: You'reScotlashbup, you've learned Utshi. Why did you learn this language and I justassumance Thi Ska's, probably not going to careabout this tee logeon that it in Ma Phon, so I told thim they did don't Tuwork in the Dutch Theologi and I've moved here to do more. Research Ba probably would have heard of him andsay he said: Oh supwhat was this name S. I told him head him on Bavink and hesaid Oh yeah. I know baving's name and there's a baving streets, that's just acouple of streets away from where I live and actually went to a doctor, H,bavick school that was named after him. So this guy said you know. I don'treally know much about him, but I know that he was really important and in hisday there are lots of things named after him. So there are baving streetsand various Dutch cities. There are lots of primary schoolsacross the country that are named after him, an still so there still namerecognition, even by people who...

...probably don't reat theology, and sothe traces of impact from his life are still there. But in his own day you know so we thinkof Haing at least I hope the Bagraphy will change this in the Englishspeaking World Bu. We know laving as the dogmaticians, the guy who wrotethese four huge volumes of theologen and they're such huge at homes oftheology and ty're they're amazing. But you try and imagine how much time itwould take to produce this, and you would probably imagine that you don'treally have much time left over for anything else in your life. So Tis,your magnmopissene is really point. You spend all day every day, working on andyou've left something mere markable by Hin. But that was all you did. You werea theologian and nothing beyond that, but actually, what's so fascinatingabout having his life is that he wrote these volumes of theology, but also didso many other things so when I've tried to rescue in the biography as thereality Ha, although having was this exception of the elogion and that Ithink the best of his generation in the Notherland Om one of the Best Lifar inthe twentieth century, more broadly, but as well as that, he was really apoly math, an intentionally Christian polymouth who tried to live a life thatwas extending in so many different directions. All at once. Nd made himiold name. So he was a national newspaper editor for acouple of years. He was a member of parliament for the last decade of hislife, where you know you would read his speeches and across all the dailynewspapers n, he was m celebrated biographer, how he ear abrilliant bigraphy of of a poet called telibuilderdike that was praised byNonchristians as well and by by sceptics. Just it was a great piece ofwork on he famous Dutch poet and he he really reshaped her. Dutch educationwas set up then, for example, and he played a very important rule and womenbeing given the right of votes so Hestin all of these things all at thesame time an he was a pioneer and the new developments in psychology I meanjust doing so much stuff ewas, it celebrated travel writer. So I think we maybe don't have a good sense ofbecause our contexts is so different. IEVEN in the Netherlands are sodifferent D, But a hundred years ago, when further back than that, when Bavikwas young, for example, when he went to university, he was one of at tinynumber of university students in the entire country. So you have, I think,when he went to university, maybe roung three point: Three million people inthe Netherlands, of whom you have fewer than y fifteen hundred one thousandfive hundredd university students. So almost nobody does this, and so, ifyou're, a university you're already them a person of national interest andso you're, just thkind of access that you have to the carer o power and Owyour things re reported in the the press. Even you know these past switchexams all that kind of stuff people really no and care about this, becausethese are he, the movers and the shakers at a university. At that point,the kind of people that you would come into contact with as a student aregoing to be this. You know elite set of politicians, newspaper editors,professors, the elorgins, so they all know each other anyway, and that meansthat you're incredibly well connected from the beginning- and you just getused to being the public eye from from quite young. So that's very much hislife. There really did make a ise Ol name. So bavink was undoubtedlybrilliant apolymath, as you said. If I have the dates right from yourbiography, he he began gathering materials for the reform, dogmatics,eighteen, eighty four, so he's thirty years old. You know I I had in my mind.I guess I I did just didn't put the math together. You know I was thinkingof Hog who that was his magnamopis. You know in later years put together hislectures, but he's already thinking about this from very early on as aprofessor and the first volume appears in eighteen. Ninety five, so he's he'she's my age, I'm going to guessyour age, Ish, eighteen, Ninety, seven, ninety eight nineteen o one is fourvolumes and then revised significantly in finding all out in nineteen eleven.So I mean he is absolutely brilliant. One of the things I remember from yourbiography, some early biographer sort of paintedit as well. He wasn't a very good student and initially- and it seemedlike you- were spaying- I'm not sure he was probably pretty brilliant from theGetgo. Did. People recognize early on this guy is really really smart, mmsohit's, actually something that I try and push back on en thebiography in thefirst place, how we think about the search for a brilliant child. Sothere's a very romanticized notion of genius that develops n. There wasn'treally prominent when babing himself was young, because I think in thatphase of Dutchestory people, just weren't all that attudes to childhodbehavior and how significant it was. So...

...people thought at that point that theirchildhood was important, formatively for what they became, but they wereless concerned with than following chiltybeavor very carefullyan I now searching for a diamond in the rough or something like that, butsomething that develops after this is a romantic search for the first time thatsomeone saw the this genius that we all know of was truethe eaginess and it'salmost the right of passage. This youknow this constructed the H, wifehe's really augenious. When when was she first spotted, you know who was thefirst person who heard this great singer sing when they were in a churchchoir? You know Yobee that part of the story that sets up the genius asdiscovered at certain points, and that's so that's something that tainksearliest Dutch Boer refer n Apid into his biography, but m thatwhen he was young and like his dad, moved to Pastra Church Livs near a verygoods school and then the there was a teacher from the school who went tomeet the two bavinc boys, Becaus havving stad thought the baving's otherbrother was the genius. Hermon was very smart and then the teacher is the onewho spots the Herminos as really agenius. So this is in the first long,Dutch biography, but the problem with that historically, as well as newwether that conversation ever took place because his marry word of mouthby word of Mith Y Wor of Mith Ou, K, ow recarded, decades and decades anddecades after, but the problem. The really big problem is that havingdidn't have a brother, a tastage, the whole story, the more the more youstart to Pusch it. A little bit is really problematic and falls apart, and but we don't find, we find, I thinkmore significantly than you know, was having. Obviously a genius when he wasyou know three years old was far more significant is that his parents wereextremely ambitious for their children with what they could achieve in lifeand a'm, also ambitious for them as Christians, as well as quiteconservative, calvinous Christians and that their children would go on to havelots of opportunities in life and Um really bring their their their ownChristian tradition in their church into the center of DUB society and th. Again, we don't really grastethe significance of that th, the English speaking worlds, because wedon't really know much aout nineteen century Dutch church history. But it'sa really interesting history, because until eighteen, forty eight so for thefirst half of that century, the Netherlands wasn't a democracy when youdon't have basic social freedoms like freedom of religion and in any kind ofabsolute sense, a a very limisted freedom and assembly. Instead, you havea monarch who is an authoritarian, ruler, Anto, who and say if you wereperformed, you ulegally Y, no wer required to be part of t. The mainlandstate Dutch Reform Church that the king approves of that. The king has a lot ofcontrol of financially there's a government office that tries to saywhat You'e Gin to sing on Sundays. The producer SOMG books that are verypatriotic and the allegenttly liberal and all that kind of stuff. So Pavincame from a church that had secceded from that and then tha before you wereallowed to do that. So their pastures would regularly be imprisoned andbeaten and finds. And if you were from that church and you had kids- and therewas this glass ceiling that really wasn't very far above your head at all-for what your kids get achieved, because you were really paryas in Dutchsociety and that all changes a few years before Herman Babving Hisborn,because Thereis a democratic revolution and n the you know, the king loses allof his powers and um all of a sudden. The par moves to the people, who canwho've got freedom, all tha, sudden, freemom of religion, fream ofexpression and the press becomes opened up. So anyone can waite what they think.So you have this bran Youkan of culture that these parents, this pasture youngAvingan's Wifeare, then bring up their kids in and then they they really wanttheir gets to take all of these opportunities that are available tothem. Youoso there, the forbating sons who live intohadlhoods, an one trains to be a pastor, the other three one becomes a medicaldoctor. He does PhD in medicine, one as Herman having this great theologian andthe other died when he was in in the middle of his PhD work and in law. SoYe these really ambitious parents, his sons all go on to be really highachievers actually and coming from a background where you know these peoplehad their own schools before heighteen forty eigh tha, Wer, clandestine thatwere illegal, that pretty low. You know, educational standards as well, becausethey hade no resources. The story is actually really fascinating. With herone family, Hos from you now state sponsor oppression to producing a bunchof sons, actually no Decermin aving, but who who wanted to excel in lawmedicine of theologyss. The church is really interesting James. I have so many things. I want toask you: Let's you already talked about his parents, which are Um Yan, how yousay it young, yes, and how do you...

...pronounce his mom's name? Juza Y Kno Aso? I should know that Um being adoung in learning a little bit of Dutch here and there, but I'd love to just do lightning round here and go through afew family and friends, key people and his biography, and you just you, give afew sentences. So you talkd already about his parents, Um, say a little bit aboutHenry Doscar and I'm interested in Henry Doscer, a good friend of his andY. You, you pull from a lot of letters. I think I mentioned to you over emailthat I went to Hope College in Holland Michigan, which shows up several timesin the biography, and I had friends who lived in doscar cottage, so there'selers buildings named after him, and I may ask you later about Venraltibecause he's certainly a big deal and NI. I can. I could take you to thestatue of Venralti in Sentenniol Park in Holland Michigan. So a lot of thesepeople are still at least their names are known and the part of the worldwhere I'm from so tell US Henry Doscer. Who was he? Was He important to Bavingk?Yes, he was aving's teenage best friend, so from the Netherlands as well, and DOSCER's. Dat was baving's passer whenlevink beam, a professing member of the church, and this Asfrom bavrink wasliving away from home as a teenager to go to a classical high school and thendoser moved to the states when his father became a pastor in grand rapidsand they kept in touch and threwout the rest of their lives. I think that they,the Duscer, thought that they were maybe closer than baving thought. Theywere sosiciy outward Rednilan, Ahada friendship and Oscard aving or aving'slife developed in Allkins of fascination ways. You know withhysthological development and ways the deskir didn't really understand, andjust you know he was on another consonant and was quite far from youknow the mother country and Madoscar mediated Daving for quite a while toAmerica, especially because you know he was biling. Well English and Dutch, and I was Wasicos personal friends and Ithink something af tried to challenge a bit in the bigraphy is in readingbaving too much through ell scare, because and you can see quikarly fromtheir letters that dosker didn't always get what avink was doing and I don'tthink Bavin was Um completely Um, maybe just open an a kind of close friend way and hisletters with Delscar Doskar really pours himself into his letters.Having's responses are just, alas, a bit sharter but less personal tan,oster completand se nd I've told the all this stuff about me. Come on.What's going on in your life sa Yea S' he's throght, theobiography ieverthyinteresting as well, but maybe not as Close Tho baving as he teseetokhe wasso one of his other close friends. WHO's on a different side of the spectrumfrom Doscar is Snuk Argonji, Azon, Herhrona Karanya. That's the tough oneHercona y. He is one of the most fascinating people in the biography,he's probably almost unusual in the brography byke qua some way. So he hewas an Aristocrat hise. Dad was a pastor but wh in context verycontroversially abandoned his wife and fled to London with another woman andsocny Crofonia as the product of that union. So he was a passtor and aliberal pastor in the mainstream of on Church. So snucrofhona was anAristicrat, so bore that kind of a burden, but also with scandalized thisefamily associations. So he studied at Light Uiniversity. At the same time ashaving dit N, they were both outsiders and the University of different kindsof waist but struck up a friendship, US people who were opposite ome mostregards and almost every aparient, but they both really valued. Having acritical friends who didn't think like Tedids, and so they become friends andthen state friends for life and Iwhen sno became a Muslim sorta. So snooimpart of my sneak is really famous as well in his own way, because he was oneof the first people to enter Mecca during the hatch I takephotographs and that propell them to now international startem in his ownday, because he had these pictures and have these experiences. But to do that,he had to convert to his lamb and UM. He kind of as t he's far more of aJaqueline anheigt character than Heraavinc. Actually her having his oneconsistent, Iden, Stebu Snikacona, when he's in the Netherlands is Nistian. NEUCrofonia doesn't regard himself as a Muslin dresses and Western clords allthat Kand of stuff, and when he's in the Muslem world, he becomes ApdelHafar Hadce. This guy, who married a Muslim teenager living in the living onJava, had multiple lives and year UNHAD. You know Misslem kits as well now, butthe that he left behind there thinking that hed done the right thing by themin terms of Islamic Clob, but then move back to the Netherlands marries a Dutchwoman, and I think lots of this skin of...

...double life actually was quite unknownto Bavic. So snoak is this riddl of having, but Bavon tries really hard toengage with them throughout his life as a Christian as well and O, like Davingspok philosophy, revelation really fantastic book based on lectures thatVaven game imprintsten allabout as apologetics. Basically it's. Why is itreasonable to believe in revelation that God reveals himself andactually, if you don't believe in revelation, how is it hard to make a knif consistent coherent, compelling a count of I o live in the world, so Tharit's really apologetics and but bacving styleo partners he's writing of this ishis close, unbelieving friend Swucrofona. So snipraponia isfacinating, he's really hot really weird, but as having a figure like thatHo flits, an ot af this alamb and a Mizslein identsee as a constant figureof BAVICG's life, is really interesting to yeah. I I didn't know any of that atall and the other. Well, there's lots of things I didn't know, but I was alsofascinated by Amelia dendecker and the role that she played in boving's life,his H. Well, I I don't know if it's unrequited love, you do a good job ofsaying. Well, was this her hiding behind her father, or was it really herfather but say a little bit about Amelia because they never married andshe never married in her whole long life? But hermen was head overheels in love with her writingLatin. You know mystery code in his in his journal about her, but it neverworked out. Who was she? Why didn't they ever get married? Yes, he he firstgot to know her when he was a teenager, an the time that he grew up n. Theywere t tedekers, Girl's, Family Amelia were Fr m the next time along. So she was. She was a YEARC older than himas well. I think four or five years older and he was really besalted withher as a teenager and some of his earliest dyary entries are Uby her and,as you say, they're coated and lesson for secrecy. I mean he, HE WASSAT WHA AL, an us todo live in our journal. I'm always coating and laughing so ouonaving doesis a deeper level of cort still sometimes is. When he's writing abouthis friends as a student, if something controversial happens, he will. He willwrite the first name in Arabic, letters, a d rent, the surname and Hebrew soyeah. He he was the master of ading. He was like a spy in hi eas, butso IMENIA. He he really wanted to marry her Wen in this journals. We have that's the ter jerker part of theBAGERPIM. This goes on from when he's like teenager Atto, the age of thirtyone, but he still hopes to marry her D but wasn't allowed to because herfather wouldn't give consent and e The Netherlands before you could getmarried, you had to pursue you parental permission three times and and onlywhen you'd exausted those options. Could you get marre without prentalpermission, but t was very controversial socially and you? Youhave to be well into your mature Ada life before Youre, allied to getmarried without parental permission, Soe Bavick's young. You know teenage Osin his twenties, even intohis, early thirties and he's really dependent onthis. This woman's father, giving him permission of the Father Never would,but we ha. We have lots of interesting details, really sad details, an his inthe styres and also come across in some of his letters as well that he hopes tomarry her so and he ends up being pretty unhappy as when he bit thessingle and annoying thing apet duscerous letters.I think for Bavic that Doscar thinks that having is single in principle andtee, he almosay O Kno. U Ca a Kapuca you're Akain of monk who doesn't wantto get married and aving really really did and wanted to marry Ameli aICHALIBA. The single USS then free some up to become much more bookish ANDPproduce the Domatics Romar. Yet one of the thing I just read this paragraph tomy passroom inistry class here last week and it's from the year and a halfwhere he's bobbing is a pastor and he's was it I don't rememer if it was DOSCRor for a snoke. Who was writing? Do you have more time for your studies and hesaid M, I'm preaching twice: I'm catechizingfour times. What do you think? Of course I don't have any time, and thenhe writes this very plaintive paragraph about how lonely he was M, how it wastaxing on his soul, spiritually to kind of be the the holy man an and even it seemed like ITW'ud, be too far tosay he was. He was doubting his faith, but he was just feeling this pressureto be the confident spokesman for the faith at every turn at every moment.Ann Compounded, as you said, that he was single and, as you point out sowell, you know in that time a single man like that wouldn't have beenexpected to live on his own and do his cooking and cleaning when he was inuniversity. He would have someone do...

...that for him, but now he was livingwith an older couple from the church and so literally to have any time byhimself. He had to go into his room, so he's kind of the worst of both worlds.He was always on as a pastor and yet h he never. He didn't have the thecompanionship that he was. He was longing for at that time w. What didyou make of that? I get back to his the woman. He did marry in just a moment,but that year and a half in passrol ministry was was bobink. was he a fishout of water? was he not fit well for that, or was it just a time in in lifewhere things came together and made for a difficult season? I think for him it was a hugeadjustment to make had gone from Nel University, a very privileged existence,but also very carefur existence, as well as a students and all of a suddenhave been thrust into this small time. You know collortheconservative, where people had a very particular set of social expectationsabout the minister and where you would never address them. INA certainformerly,your see, see your master as someone that could be your friend. You knowthat you could go and you know play around he Gulf. Where he's idomini yeahhe's the DOMINAE, so you have to treat hem ultra, formerly and Um. That'swhere he, I think, noticed immediately. I really wish that I were married andthat I had someone who could see me as just Herman rather than alwas being youknow, Domina aving, and that was that was a really huge shift to makeovernights Um the constant production of sermons as well was quit hard forhim because he preached maybe like fifty or so a time tis before he waseardeemed, but almost tole was in the same two texts. So all of a sudden, YoeHafe er made a different text that I different Cermon of different textevery Sunday and you do all these other things. Well, you wondered. Am I justprojecting myself into these situations? So I don't really know these people,but all of a sudden that morning, with them anleving a funeral and then I'mcelebrating with people who' ve just had a baby and I'm trying to work outou a Hodaway and do this as myself, so am as the soul that Fak and Tey just anactor whois learning how to act in Allteif en circumstances. They reallybelieve this ind a really sincere and so the questions they asks of themselfere actually really instructive for new areans theyare, just newpasters, butany pastors. I think in the challenges of being a minister, so he as hard, butI think he he grew into the rule and I think that he didn't realize just howmuch she'd gon into it until his birthday, the only birthday the Camaroswhen he was a pastor when all these people from his church come to his histwith really thoughtful gifts and there's this oupouring of love and youcan tell from the gifts that they know Hav. Now they give them like cigars.They GIV an you, know: Egg Books, they give him.You know furniture for his office and they give him things there that reallyshow that they have gone to another pastor as a person and then knon yousee around the time on what he writes Abo his time infamicer in the stonespastur that he actually realizes. He loves it here and he has a couple ofpeople in his church, ane elder and his wife, who look out for him to get himout of the town quite often to go and visit other people who aren't part ofhis flock and that really helps him as well. I think, and- and yes you knowgood family and friends who comes to Visi inregularly to just be a life Lin,but e was really sad when he left actually to go and teach theology TaHewa felt that Sobr when he began and wasn't really relishing. You know so Ipastored for two years in Orange City Iowa, which is named after William ofOrange, and I did take note in his his travel. You know talking about journeyto America. I put this on twitter last week that he saas onge Michigan wasgreat in terms of virtue. Pella was better and best of all was Orange CityIowa. You know I was there, I don't know if it's changed since I was therefifteen years ago, but they they called me Domini. I was snill even as anassociotpaster. I was Domini di young and it was a small town and a much reverence forthe Domini. I can only imagine what that must have been like in theNetherlands a hundred years or hundred and thirty forty years prior Yo orangecity iowais. So Dutch, they didn't- you know in America were always asking.Where are you from? Where are you from and what's your background and andthere they didn't even ask if you were Dutch, they just assumed you were n, sothey just said well what province are you from you just skip all of theformaiis just go right into province, so I I found the book. Obviously I loveBavink have read reformed daugmatics. I didn't know a whole lot about hisbiography, so I've fond it fascinating in that way and also as the young as aDutch. If you ain't Dutch Yo ain't, much, we always SS cosiseously caseey.Now is the only thing, that's better! Well, the accent perhaps so, II'll give youthat I so I'm you're Scottish and you...

...studid, Dutch, I'm Dutch and I studiedJohn Witherspoon Nscott. So I was I loved reading about the connections hehad with Dutch America, which I know more about and with these people thatOh, I never knew that that person had any connection to Herman bofing in thenames of these buildings in these places. In the back of the book it it'sFascinatg specially for Americans is ten or fifteen pages on his firstjourney to America. I I know that one place where he'ssaying how great everything is he says, except for the pillows, so I'm not surewhat was wrong with the Asof the disappoint at the millow point. He alsosaid, I think, in two places there are a few handsome men, but more and morebeautiful women. So so there you go. He made the point that you brought outas well that he felt like as much as he he raved about America in some ways andhe was maybe being over polite, but he thought that Americans were too strongin their personality to be calvinists. What did he mean by that? and He, Ithink he reflected on that more and his second trip as well, that he reallythought calvinism didn't have you know there were these pockets of Dutchreformed calvinism for sure, and he was warmly welcomed there, but across thecountry as a whole, you got the sense he felt like arminianism was winningand going to win the day, because American temperament just wasn't suitedfor Calvinism, then an ACCR read, and why did he think that yeah his anaccure read and it's a great question so when he made that trip to America hewas sense almost as a missionary for the kind of calvinism that have beentransforming Dutch culture for the previous couple of decades, thecalvinism of Abraham Kiper, the halvinism that says k. do you despairof the society that you live in Ase secularizes and falls apart and as wedon't reall know what we have sa Yewhat kind of future. We have to look forwardto you. Do you despair of the century that we've just lived through in Europeof famine and war and revolution? Well, herseio think Christianleabout all oflife and way thegets. You hope for the future, so calvinism in Europe at thatpoint is tremendously compelling because it tells you to look to thefuture, how to rebuild things I to be save tight to piece with God so n a context where Ninghteen CenturyEuropeans are really traumatized by the just by the century that they've livedthrough calvinism. There was a tremendously hopeful message for thefusure, but it predisposes presupposes a kind of like despondency, are an a pretty bleak view of where yourculture is going Han without calvinism, and so you have terms that th crop upin Europe and the develop in that period like in Germany. You would talkabout velchmats, I kind of just being sick of the world being fatigued by theworld that you live in are in French. They would talk about the Malduciecl,the sickness of the century, where you're sick of this century, and so inthat kind of context, ten Caperian Calvanism, the baving was commissed towas so compelling and people were bying into it and it was gaining mass popularsupport, Frin the Netherlands, but then baving went to America and finds uthese.People are y t they're buffered by the Atlantic, then they're, not scarred bythe century that Europeans have been scarred by in America. People haveenough to eat in America. You know there are jobs foreveryone, because you're having to create a whole new country ofinfrastructure and society and Um people are really optimistic andmoralistic. The religion is fundamentally deastic and you knowthey're all about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. So how much harderwill it be for them to hear what calvinism has to say about God's atehuman, the human being that you can't save yourself? You can't put yourselfup by your bootsteps before God and you contribute nothing andinstead youreceive and the n you live in gratitude to respond. That's a very UNAMERICANMESSAGE: Avye having thought and the wereas. I guess you could se Minianexpression of Christianity. That says yeah actually w you choose, you choseGod, you kN W you've got lots that you you've got to strive for. You Wut yourback into it. You know, vernerial, yes, put your shoulder to the wheel, be ontrip in Te, rel create stuff. You Take the initiative, and that wasmuch more palatable. I think so. Th N- or at least he thought so in anAmerican context, so he'd been sent, as, as I said in the book as an emissry forthe Dutch calvinism of the day, and there were newspapers in theNetherlands following his journey and they were really concerned with tellingthe public and the Netherlands. What did the Americans think of havings,calvinism and thiss has been followed...

...in the national news and then he cameback and told them. Sorry, so'v G disappointing news about these nativesthat you tenk me to be a missioner to O, like they don't respond to our message.But what was so surprising them is that abate give us thef public lectures ofthe people paid to go to y, to hear his thoughts on America, a D that he taughthis Dutch audience. This isn't going to stop the spread ofthe Gospel Than God will have asway in America, ND with Americans. Even ifit's not through Calvinism wedats oel will previl against the church, andthen he ended these lectures. BYSING and after all, Calvanism Notle O. Yes,I was going to read that right here, having seen so much. That is good. Oneshrinks back from critique. May American Christianity develop accordingto its own law, God has entrusted America with its own high and greatcalling. May America strive for it in its own way? Calvinism after all, isnot the only truth. That's a Mikedrop and people e Yeah O. They must have beenshocked. I kind of agree with it and I'm not sure I like it either yon a Yo mean by that. Was He trying tobe a little provocative yeah very much so he was, but I think you when you look at thethings he writes about calvinisn around those years and he believed thatcalvinism was the best expression of Christianity, and you know he himself.I M an he spent his whole life tring to advance Calvina Someray, but at thesame time he argued very clearly that calvinism is not notly all as opressionyea. Well, now that it's not the expression, I in uotus obvious andemontere e Justlook at the world, Renu they're Christians who don't sa theGalvernous, but he said that calvinism is not Qo extensive with Christianity.So it's and even the best expression of Christianity can't cover the wholething and an you know. The Christian faith is a catolic faith that spreadsin contexts. thite calvanism hasn't developed, and yet so there can beauthentic possible faith in context that haven't been touched by Calvenism,for example, and and even if calvinism you know, falls apart, then you know th, the gates of ell willnot prevail against the Church and the Christian faith will continue to spreadbecause it depends on God, rather than us, Siteso for Bavina Verr, calvinous,Lhick wa, to think about Calvinism, because you know the calviness also arepulling the world ubay. The OIT straps thers raining on God. So, but you know he as that's part of. Whyhe's so interesting that he says provoctive things that make peoplethink it does so um, not even off the first page of myquestions want to make sure we say something about his wife, Joannaskippers and then their daughter, Hanni and and really her remarkable life, sosay a little bit about why he married the woman that he did when Ameliadidn't work out and then his wife was a remarkable person in her own right andthen their daughter and grandkids were in the Anti Nazi resistance you justhit on that a little bit at the very end of the biography, so say a littlebit about his wife and his daughter. So his wife was was a reallyfascinating character at her own rights and she was the daughter of a wealthyshipowner. So she had a pretty privileged upbringing. She learnedEnglish and French gowing up. She was a Lifelon, an Anglifil, and she she lovedLondon, for example, looks like that was her favorite city and they used totravel there quite a bit and she travelled with him to Americaas well on his under the second trip to America in Nineteen O eight. So she wasa very cultured person and an intelligent person as well so Shewhen,to hear him give the logical lectures before they were engaged. She had herown thoughts on some of his theological debates Um. So she, when she was shewas younger than he was as well lived, hin by some way n having himself diedwhen he was still quite young when he was sixty six, but with the Bavinx with Herman andJohanna after World War, one they very much perceived that it. We couldn't really miss thisbecause it is hollor round Thom but youhave, a generation of young men whohave died at the same time and they're not there for the young woman that theywould have otherwise married to form family units with so society has changed and it has tobecome individualistic in a way there wasn't before. In Dutch culture, or hasthe facility individuals to act within society and Yo for a women to have herown career, for example, whers t. If you look at therthe decades before thatDutch culture isn't very much a culture of families and Um, you don't havewomen going to university and women don't have the rate of Bok, sell thosekinds of things so babink and Johanna together and really applay themselvesand thinking and racing, but also hokens. A practical is to rethinkingDutch society in Christian terms. So what should the rol of woman be in thischange, society that is Niy so different because of the war and Um? SoJoanni was really fascinating, a lot of...

...the stuff she did there and from afterhermannight. She carried on with this work, so shecofinded a journal QothChristianity in the women's movements, where they don't lots of reallysignificant thinkers m from theire day an also woman raters as well to writeloss of issues on helping people. Think EUs O wrestle with Herman's own ritingson this, so but tell people think about, and Christianity and the place of womenin Changing Society, and she was also reathe influential in the promotion ofcalvanisn quit conspicuous ways as of women in a very humale dominatedacademy in that period. So she was really trying to hard to keep his workgoing and ought a lot about to drinking, to publish in English and German Hannitheir daughter, theyhad one child.As you said, she had a fascinating and really tragic life as well. So shemarried a lawyer who studied a the free university were havving tolk for acouple of decades and they have three sons. So in Worldwar, two, theNetherlands was occupied by the natzis and there was an underbrin resistancemovement so Hammy and her family Welhani and her husband were part ofthis. We know explicitly that two of thethree songs were involved as well N in resistance activities and one of them tn taking photos of M or gatheringdetail on where netsies were stationed through the country and that and stuff,but they're also both involved with an Undergrad newspaper head paddle, whichis now a daily dohe newspaper. But it was so starged as an undergrandAntinatsi newspaper ND. So they were both two. These two of their sons werearrested, nd captured by Nazis, betrayed and soon and ended up beingexecuted and Yor facing the firing, squat and t. Thethird son was a home with his parents nd when natys came to their house andthis third son survived by hiding in the attic and wasn't fined by theparents of having's daughter and her husband were resteds Um baving son inlaw. Anie's husband's was, as I said, a lawyer, so he was, he would help. UmJews and Jewish property be transferred discreetly, out of so wintfallintoNatcy Han an be taken, the banancies and they also helped people in hidingall that kind of stuff that went along with being the resistance. So bavingson, a low was sentenced to death, but that evactually that was lessened thanhe was taken to a concentration camp and that he was being transported fromthe concentration camp to a prisoner of worcamp when he died of dysentery. Soin a very short space of time, baving's daughter Hanmy loses her. Her husbands,who has been taken away to a concentration camp, two of her sons are,are they died facing a firing squabs andthen she only has this one son for you who's left. So they have a reallytragic heartbreaking story, ts a story F of faith as well and hope nd. So thatwas in some ways the hardest part of making the bowgers. I because it's justas a story of of uninagionable human tragedy and loss and also faith and ina way hope as well. In the midst of that, and it's not a story- that's beentold in English before but t is there in the proscript of the Baography withwhat happened to Johanna what happened to their family, and so it was a verymean. Moving thing, too had to come across a mey research and t felt like alike a real privilege in an onor to showe their story, but theit was it wasI had no idea and it was. It was really sobering and heroic to read that now you have a hard stop in just aboutfive minutes: 'cause, you are a good dad and you getting kids from school. Ihave so many questions and we've hardly talked about Abraham Kiper who's such aloom's large in this history, the Netherlands and anbovings biography.But I want to try to ask some big picture type of questions as we rap up. Let me ask the question then I'll giveyou the my thought behind. It was BAFINK and evangelical. Now here'smy thought behind that Yo w you talk about him, Orthodox and modern, andcertainly you say later he preferred the term Calvinis to some other markersand I was struck and maybe it's just what you were trying to use in moving the narrative forward that some of what I would associatewith the Dutch second reformation, that kind of piety n there was that Strandof the secession movement. That was really that Dutch piety. I saw less of that in in the biography ofbavink. In you know, maybe Evangelica, I'm sure, there's a you know. It wasfirst German word, so I know there's a Dutch word as well, but would he havefound affinity with the Anglo American Evangelical Hen?Would he have used that term? Would he...

...have, you know, saw himself. As youknow, an academic who's still proud to be of the Whitfield and Edwards Line ofthings was bobbing an evangelical. What fantestic question so you do find the piety aspects in theBargraphyre. I think I mean you see this an k, the chapter on his father.He would cas an rice, yes and know the will of God nd. I never found Hermanhimself casting lots, but you know if you med, through his his journals, hisletters as if I to show tebiography he really agonizes over and knowing thewill of God and whether he thinks why he's chosen for his life is wirl. Goonce for him, so there's hot a reat little on called just do something that that I wrote that he shouldave shouldhave just read there. Wat should erserve, yet the gift O fors Hahn, butin terms of th evangelical question we can say fairly concrete things aboutthis from his own interactions with American possible centric protestantism, becausehe engaged with that as well and- and he was really struck by some aspect ofthat, especially in this second trip to North America, where he really agot wind of the theglobal missions movement. Yes right it, he rnts thoprofoundly affected him aswell, and then he comes back to the Netherlands and all of a sudden isOlibo miceology and give charry's admission established at the FreeUniversity and Campin, and and developing the thoughts and supportingmissionries, but also promoting the evangulization of the Dutch themselvesand realizing that the lots of them are now functionally pagan. An they've beendechristianized unchristianized, I think, were his main critique of Im generic of angelicalism in theEnglish speaking worlds would remain the same. Sade as it was in his own dayis the extent of what the Gospel Entails and and Por The Gospel as amessage for so one of the the penbeses that have incueded in the book. So thhas stravel ratings on America, but there's another one in the pendecies,which is like a series of point, so that ofAngelization, which I think are some of the clearest Sarticulations of what theGospel Means for Babik and the Gospel. It does mean telling people they mustbe saved. They must you now believe in Christ and trust in him, and you knowthey have to go on living lives that are bearing fruits that show andsintification, but as well as that, the Gospel for bavink is. It was not just amessage for your soul, but it's also a good use for your body. It's Gitne asfar the whole of the creation that God is going to recreate won. Christreturns, so the Gospel is gooden used for art and for Sience es Giv Nese forYour Business. Let's give you for our school, it's GIV Yeus for politics asYones for journalism and all of those things are part of the proclamation ofthe Gospel and actually wl Daving says, is properly the work of angelization. So the Gospel isn't just you know, adecision for Christ that never gets followed upon, and it's not just aseries of you know private devutional practices. It's not just althoughs. The center ofit for Baving is not just. You know what happens in Church on a Sunday N interms of public worship for the Christian community, but it's also it'ssomething that extends out beyond all of that and is the Gosspel is a message that tellspeople how to live for the glory of God and n from like Monday to Saturday, aswell as Sunday and in every sphere of their lifes. Every seere of HumanExistence Christles Lord of all, and therefore the Gospel has something tosay to all of that. So the Gospel is, I think, Babing cul say, is much moreholistic than a century on a lot of hemogolicals havemade out to be where he would say is well one dimensionol Gospel. I think so.He sympathised heven sympathise massively withthe EVANGELICALISMM, buthe thought that he had a long Ti to it last question: Whatever time you have what I I hear you talking there a little bitabout maybe some lessons to draw, but you can talk more about that or answerthis. What surprised you? What surprised you about Herman Boppi? Whatdid you learn about your your own faith? What weren't you expecting in doingthis historicaled theological labor of love, yeah wea great question. Again, I was surprised by just Ho human. Hewas, and now that I went into thinking, I wasn't traying to do hegieography.This is critical, historical scholarship but add I don't think Iappreciate it just how much he could be bothincredibly bookish, but also you know, be someone who could be head over heelsin love and then end up being pretty crushed by that experience, ym or a eOtie. Someone who, even on his death Bet Bavig, isfascinating because on one breath, Yeu...

...sing that he wants to enter Heaven andsee the glory of God en be Allowe to come back to tell the church and theworld. That is true, but then also say that he doesn't know what to make ofdying on is steafbed. That living is strange and dying, a string tol. Sosomeone who has so many answers and be's so profound that articulating theChristian faith also has such I guess, humility, N, what ye can say so and all kinds of hunorabilities in hisown life experience and stories. So that that was really fascinating. Ithink the other major lesson that I learned wiguess. I don't really havetime to develop in the censor in the time we have left, but is his abilityto recognize that in some ways as grand picture of how the world was Kointo, gowas actually wrong and that he gotte a lot of things wrong with hisexpectations of you know how the Gospel would progress through Donanolcher andthen what Yo, how you foresee, the waythat the next few decades Il go. Soin is sin the twenties and thirties. He really thought that Tan ether than as aculture was set up for kind of mass reembracing of Calvanism,that, although the ockins of new etheisms around and CECULARIZING forces,it was all going t run out of steam quite quickly and the people themselveswould flock back towards their calvinisle Histerian h. There was goingto be this ou of great new phase. That was the case and then and then thatdidn't happen at all, and he realized that I think in the last two the hits of this life Imhan he goes on promoting Halbenism, but also in those decades. He alsospent so much of his time from whating Christianity, defending again ofgeneric, an Christian and faith alongside its performed expression,Andyou knowpromoting of Angelisnd, so on just because et got so much of this.TAKE ON DUTCH LANTAR RUN for a couple of decoesm and have the humility to dothat and Eden. You know and tweat about it, hying the Trong, but there is a clear shiftin direction when he realizes. I Have Gone Frim the wrong the wrong directionof them an may strategy, even for what I'm trying to do within my own cultureand hen, you have to realize that someone like Herman Pavinck could getsomething so fundamental wrong and realizer and then be very thoughtfulabout her to shift direction was, for me a real surprise, heartening, butalso instructive as well. Making me think, as a Christian about how Iinteract with the ratheir own need an they go right to I go o room, that's fascinating! I would love to ask a dozen morequestions and you've been very generous with your time, and I know you havekids to get and our lawnmowers here will come back at some point. It's anexcellent book Um. So congratulations on that and maker academic did a greatjob in putting it together and the the drawing on the front is by Oliver Chrisis that right, yea, an original portrait very kindly by EA out wow. Ididn't know that Talgirat artist yeah, that's I love the the Coverto it so bobing a critical biography. Everyone should get it and I'll giveyou the last word by reading by quoting you as you talk about his death andgathering around the gravestone and it's a very simple grave sum, butyou say much might be added to it. Here lies a dogmatician and ethosist, aneducational reformer, a pioneer in Christian psychology, a politician, abiographer, a journalist, a Bible, translator, a campaigner for women'seducation and eventually the father father in law and grandfather of heroesand martyrs in the Anti Nazi Resistance Movement. Under that heavy slab lie,the earthly remains of Herman Bobink and Orthodox Calvinist, a modernEuropean and a man of science, excellent conclusion doctor Jamesegansen. Thank you so much for being with us. I hope that you're over herein the states or I'm over there in you taste some time and we can be properlyintroduced over a drink. That would be great. ThankYoui. Thank you for having it was. A real pleasure is way to talk.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (43)