Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode 18 · 1 year ago

The Religious Fervor of American Politics


In this episode of Life and Books and Everything, Kevin, Collin, and Justin discuss the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and her vacant seat on the Supreme Court, Classic liberalism and its critics, which books were most formative in their youth, and what career they each would have chosen if not for the ones they are in now.

This episode of Life and Books and Everything is brought to you by Crossway. The Crossway title we want to highlight in this episode is the ESV Every Day Bible: 365 Readings through the Whole Bible. This bible was designed from the ground up to be an inviting daily-reading Bible, to help readers achieve their goal of reading through the Bible in a year.

Formative books in our youth:


Know What You Believe by Paul Little

Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin  

The Puritans: Their Origins and Successors by Martin Lloyd-Jones

God in the Wasteland: The Reality of Truth in a World of Fading Dreams by David Wells   

No Place for Truth: or Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology? by David Wells 

Losing Our Virtue: Why the Church Must Recover Its Moral Vision by David Wells


Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Grudem

Jonathan Edwards: A Life by George Marsden  

The Cost of Discipleship by Bonhoeffer 

The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky 

The Uneasy Conscience of Modern Fundamentalism by Carl Henry


The Cross and the Switchblade by David Wilkerson

Comeback by Dave Dravecky

Confessions (Oxford World's Classics) by St. Augustine 

Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics by William Lane Craig

Desiring God, Revised Edition: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist by John Piper

The Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges

The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God (A Theology of Lordship) by John Frame      

...greedings and salutations welcome backto life and books, and everything very glad to be here with Justin Taylorand Collin Hamsen, as we are recording this on Monday September. Twenty firsthe'll probably hear this a couple of days after but good to be with youagain and happy to also mention our sponsor crossway andin particular the ESD Everyday Bible, three hundred and sixty five readingsthrough the whole Bible. This Bible is designed from the GROUNDUP to beinviting daily Reading Bible help readers achieve their goal of readingthrough the Bible. In a year, each daily reading presents a passage fromthe old test on new testment solves and proverbs in a helpful, accessible,attractive way. That's aimed to get people to read through their Bible the whole Bible in t e year, andI know Justin. You must hear from time to timepeople sort of grimace or grown about. Oh, we have so many study bibles ore,so many specialty bibles and there are. There- are O- know, extremes, th, thehorse, lovers, Bible or or whatnot. But you know these sort of bibles they'rehelpful. I mean if, if there's a Bible that can get people and make it more easier for people to read through thewhole Bible in a year and that's a Bible, we ought to be grateful for so II'm thankful for all the ways that crossway tries to bring the Bible to usto help us learn. Good Theology get good commentary, apply the Gospel toour lives, get us through the Bible in a year, and I say if those littletweiks get more people reading and understinding the Bible, I'm I'mgrateful for it. So thank you to crossway. Well, the big news in the H, not just the political world,but cultural world, especially here in the United States, is the death ofSupreme Court justice, Ruth Bater Ginsberg. On Friday night the newsbroke, and now there's been lots of conversation about what to do next. We did not start this podcast to bepolitical pundit, so you can look elsewhere for the commentary and whatyou think will happen or what you think should happen and what is fair or right or wise or goodor strategic and lots of people have an opinion on that. But I thought it wouldbe worth the three of us, perhaps just using the occasion to think about what this says andespecially the immediate foment, not surprisingly what this says about our religious culture, our politicalculture, how the two have become almost one. What what does this reveal about wherewe are in this cultural moment, which at least the people I'm talking to fineto be? Very, I don't think frightening- is toostrong a word as we thought two twent y twenty couldn't get any morecantankerous. It's like your apocalyptic Bingo car, just punched out,another number and h. You know we're just waiting for worst case scenariosto unfold where Thi the the election is thrown to the Supreme Court, which isconsidered illegitimate and devolves into even worse violence e. Wegenerally pray. That does not happen so Colin. How are you seeing the situationand how do you think we ought to respond, as Christians seems that the response is out of proportion to perhaps what theSupreme Court ought to be? I think we all know that at this point with thethe presidency being so incredibly powerful, but then also congressseeming to devolve a lot of its authority, becauseit really can't reach any conclusions that between the executive branch andits nominations and then the Senate with their confirmations. The spremecourt has a really remarkable measure of power, and we've talked about thisbefore of how, even as the founders had intended the government to be balanced,it's become unbalanced in a number of different ways, and so I guess whatconcerns me is what you said: Kevin the religious significance and the mergingof the cultural and the political and the religious in the Supreme Court.where I don't know if you guys saw the imagesof outside a supreme court building...

...over the weekend. A group gathering andsinging John Lennon's imagine, which apparently is is become the kind ofsecularist anthem, and so it shows that there is this incredible religiousimpulse to turn toward the collective and the transcendent and toward theritual, and I don't know that it would be too much of a stretch to think ofthe Supreme Court as almost a almost like a high priesthood and sothe death of a high priest. Somebody who most innercedes between the peopleand their transcendent ideals in this case is a moment of tremendous importand viseral pain. Now I think it would be it'd be remisse to imagine or itwoud be incorrect to imagine that this suddenly emerged with Democrats or liberals with thedeath of Ruthbader Ginsberg. I think many conservatives were very worriedand I would put myself in that category when Anton and Scalia had died, umprecisely because we know the significance of the court and beingable to dictate the terms of everyday life, including, and especially,perhaps our religious practice in the interpretation there of from the billof rights. So just an I don't. I don't know w how you interpreted that of whatyou were responded with. I mean the initial response even between us isjust speculating about the politics behind it. But would you e n help me with the historyhere? Justin? Was it first in the nineteen eighties with Robert Bork,which ironically was a major effort from Senator Joe Byden at the time tobe able to spike that nomination from President Reagan? Is that the beginningof the sort of just weightiness of the Supreme Court, where now nominations,instead of being a kind of formality in a deference to the executive, nowbecome almost what Kevin's alluding to the potential for civil war Yeahi'm? Certainly not an expert on thehistory of the Supreme Court and I think they'd be fascinating to read relatively objective retelling of allof it, but it does seem like prior to Bork you had. Even the opposition party was votinghumanimously for the other justice, the presidentnominated and so yeah. When President Reagan nominated judge, Borkand Tan Kennedy learns of IT and goes to to the floor and essentially saysthat H we're going to have an apocalypse. If this man is confirmed-and he will do everything in his power and women are going to be havingbacklaa abortions and al every civil rights accomplishment would be derailed andturnd back. I mean that introduced a new level of partisanship and uglinessinto the the battels and we've never really turned backed from that so Um Yadd. To that, then we just continuedto get increasingly partisan and rancoriss. You know that whoever'snominated no matter how much integrity they have o matter. How O' good of ajudge they were. They will be painted as the embodiment of Satan himselfsitting on the Supreme Court, and I think this almost goes without saying,but it's the only position that has alifetime appointment, so amy cony Barrett who's, one of the the leadingcandidates. Supposedly, is she forty seven years old Alver went to homeserved until he was ninety and he retired. So I mean you're looking at H, four decades, potentially, if she wereto become the next associate justice, we don't have anything like that. Youmight hate trump and yet you can h think on in four years we're going tohave a new president or we can onlect a new prisonr. You might hate yoursendatory representative. We don't have anything else, THAT'S ANAPPLAYMENTE! Soyou add the combination of the lungevity and then how much power thesupreme port has to determine. No basic things is an unelected official. It'sit's really significant and three appointments in four years. I don't think there are three openingsin four years with Thee apontment, that's quite a few um I'd have to goback to see exactly how many George W Bush had in eight years in Obama had ineight years you guys could probably remember off the top of your head, butthree n four years to and two that's what I thought I justwasn't sure Kaan tereor and Alido and Roberts. I ogl that, because I wascurious like who what president has appointed the most- and it was GeorgeWashington, okay, very helpful. Reallyreally, I there Imean: Do you guys? Do you guys think Kevin? If, if you play out the history,it wouldn't be a surprise if we connected the decline to the SupremeCourt or the increasing rancor around the Supreme Court to Roby Wade, becauseyou had roby Wahe, but then the...

...aftermath people are still kind ofconfused in seventy three yeah the Democrats take over in seventy six.Both parties are still a little bit divided or quite a bit divided onabortion. Then Reagan comes in nineteen eighty, but he starts with Sandre DalConnor, if I remember correctly, Um so first woman to the Supreme Court and sothat doesn't that that Goin to transcends boundaris. So unless I'mwrong in my history, which I definitely could be, could you draw then a directline between what happened? Inineteen, seventy three to what happened withBork and then what we've been dealing with ever since and why the SupremeCourt has taken on this deeply religious significance. Do you think mthink I'm right there y off, you could make the case again. We don'tknow the mind of God, but you could. You could almost make the case that almost all of the political turmoil nowyou're going to have poltitical Termin, no matter what that's always been thecase, but so much of the intensity, the rancor, you can almost say it's, theLord's judgment, Panus for rovi weight, I mean ThinrovWade, has made racial relations more difficult because it's made politicalpolarization more intense. It's made to Sumpreme court fights. It has made everything in the political spherebecause of the immorality of Rove Wade and alsothe the illegitimacy of it, and even many people on the left recognize it asa piece of jurisprudence it. It was built upon feathers upon feathers Um.So it's not our place on this podcast tosay what should or shouldn't happen, but I think tha, one of the thingsthat's so fearful is any of our institutions. Our only palatable oronly serve the purpose. INSO long as the people do grant them legitimacy and certainly the constitution is meant todo that, an the rule of law, but whether people are right to do so ornot when they begin to doubt that there is legitimacy in the institutions andpeople feel like it is. Something is profoundly unfair, whether it may be legal or not. So thatmay be conservatives feeling like look. Thisis what this is. What the Democrats do? No, what we do you did it to Bork youdid it to Clarence Thomas. You did it to Bret Cabanar. So that's why we'regoing to go ahead and get this while we can, because we know what you do, thejustices or the Democrats feeling like wait a minute. You said with MaryGarland: You don't do this in an election, yer and now you're going todo this and people go back well, but Joe Bydean said that you do do it or wemeant you don't do it when you hold the opposite, see tof power. Okay, all ofthose points can be made politically and not arguing whichone is the best strategy to take, or that there's necessarily a Christianposition on that. But it is the case that you see the whole legitimacy andthe Supreme Court, even though its numbers have gone down still rankshigher than the presidency and the Congress and many of o our otherinstitutions in basic trust that people have for it and because they havebecome to use tensass's phrase superlegislators so often and really yoY. I mean go back and find that ten minute civic's lesson that Ben Sasdidduring the Cabanar hearings, which Yo why they wear black robes becausetherethey're supposed to be not superlegislator. If they're supposed tobe deciding the law and the fact that the Supreme Court nominations tearapart the fabric of friendships and relationships in the whole country, Nin Heaven Forbid descendant to violence tells us. This is not the way not onlythat the founders invisiond the Supreme Court to function. It was not supposedto have this much power or have this much import infused into it. But it alsosays something to Your Point: Collin about th, the way in which we areincurably religious and we will find religious transcendence somewhere oranywhere, and it's like you know, Tim Keller's line about idols. Er Idols,always let us down, and we can tell that when theire idols, because whenthey let us down or when somebody is, is poking them Um we'll go to any lenksto defend them. One of the things I seem to pick up onboth sides is that the left fears that the Supreme Courtcan roll back their founding mythology,...

...amusing, that in that idolatryterminology there, which is the sexual revolution, the Liberation of women, inparticular from the shackles of tradition. An ink traditionalists andChristians included believe that the Supreme Court Can Roll Back Theirfounding myth in America. The basic freedoms of religion that are affordedby and even required and afforded by the by the bill of rights in theConstitution. And if that's how both sides see itthen? No wonder they're so scared, no wonder they're so motivated, and Ithink it would be a mistake to see it as only one side or the other sees it in thosekinds of apocalyptic terms, because you can and I'm more sympathetic to theright wing view of course. But when you look at the left wing it just W, I meanagain, we see it with John Le Lenon thing and is really believe that they're going tolose everything that matters to them, and I think that's crazy, and Idisagree with that. But that's how Ruth Bater Ginsburg went from being a blackrobe to being the notorious Arbigi. Well and that's a big part of it too,is the pop cultural icon that she was whether many people on our facebookfeeds. You could really say more than one sentence about her. Yet people areposting you've, ment everything to me and onepopular Christian personality was saying: Well Done, good and faithfulservants. You venture entered into your rest, she's a non observed. She was anonobservant Jew, ou. You know it seems she was hard working, she was decent.So, yes, all sympathy and condolences to friends and family, and many of ushave heard about her unique and very real friendship with Scalia acrosspolitical and jurisprudence divides, and we take some comfort in that. So II'm all for honor to whom honor is due and respecting people, even when I maydisagree with some of their views, but certainly that plays a big part. If yousee that th, this is your dashboard, saint and now the evil one is going to pl,replace your saint with a devil. Well Yeah, then, as people are alreadysaying, all bets are off, all bets are off and it's one thing to say all betsare off politically because that's how politics work. Youknow one side does one thing in other side tees, another you overreach orpeople, the voters think it's overreached and you push back in theother direction within the rule of all. That's how politics work it's another.If all bets are off means Um, you know, learn it all down, burn itall down Y YEP 'CAUSE! That's how that's? How you play the game- and youdon't play- and you hear this on both sides? Look, they don't play the gameby the rules and it's about time we keep getting steam rolled, and so wehave to play the game, not according the rules or we're we're not going toget anything that we want Justi any thoughts before we move on Doyou guys. Think if you were left wingprogressives, you would still hate the song. Imagine I sure hope. So I hope if I had some anintetllectualcoherence to my basic world view as Har, it's Ha it's hard to know. Imean I don't think I I don't think I cou picked up o on itas being particularly offensive or problematic. Until I began to see somuch of its religious ICANOGRAPHAL usage, and then I just began to saywhat what exactly is this, then you give more scrutiny to it and realizeWhyi' always hat is that Song Kevin gets the award one thing likeElementary School Kevin Shut up. His Song is terrible. Masy possible quot possible, not not not perhaps whatRed Gilbert might have done, but t'strue ats t well, I mean there's alsoa I mean, there's a mardyrdom aspect to Lenin as well, which of coursewratchits up that that religious significance as well and even apilgrimage aspect of it within central park, with the imagine location as well.So all those all those trappings- you don't have to be a Jimmy Smith or TimKeller, or whatever to be able to pick up on that. It's a drug component toowellalso, true a rea ritual partaking. I perhaps perhaps okay so somewhat related to talking about politics. I've wanted totalk about this for...

...uh several months on the podcast, and Ithink the two of you have are willing to politely. Let me talk about it andBringim into the conversation O. It mean it gets into things that I'minterested in things that I've studied. But you do see this. This is aconversation. That's been going on for well over a year. What is the the the Christian way to evaluate classical liberalism? Not we useliberalism as leftwing left wing. Theologically left win politically, butI I'm putting classical liberalism to mean enlightenment philosophy in one sense,but even more of that, you might say the Te Fusion of Enlightenment Principles with ClassicRepublicanism and at the Founding Basic Protestant virtue and world view. Sothose three streams come together at the founding. You know the perennialquestion is America, Christian country, or was the founding Christian? Well alldepends on what you mean by Christian, what you mean by the founders, but it Ithink it's undeniable, that there were certainly enlightenmentthemes and many of those came from people who are not Christians orcertainly not even Gelica Christians and, at the same time they were tiedtogether for good or bad. We'll talk about that with a number of Christian and even sometimes reformedideas about the depravaty of man and why we need checks and balances. So how are we to understand the role of liberalism, ClassicLiberalism and a Christian response to it and just to flesh out adefinitionand, then I'll? Ask You guys a question I was listening. I listened to thesegreat courses. I've listened to probably a dozen of them over the yearson my commute tand. Listen to one. I think this was on modern political tradition or politicalphilosophy or something and at the very end the professor asked the question of hisclass. Why is it that, even with all of our differences, you still inhabit many of the same assumptions,whether you realize it or not? Now I don't know how many years ago this was.I think this actually is getting less and less true, but he said ofquodingear. Do you believe in fasciism communism, aristocracy, royalism ortheocricy? That is, do you think we should have a one party state with nofree elections or rule by those who inherit wealth or rule by the family ofwhoever ruled last or rule by the unelected clerics of somebody's church?Do you believe that the power of government in the majority should notbe limited? Should there be no individual rights as in the bill ofrights? He goes on and ask these questions and he's asking them thinking.Well, yet you you don't, want one party stay with no free elections. You don'tbelieve that whoever has wealth should be the next rulers you're, not intoaristocracy. You don't believe that the rulers should just come like royalismfrom whoever the last family. You don't believe in unelected clerics. So all ofthose things you could add communism in the mix. I mean these have been waysthat societies have organized and govern themselves and most everyonemaybes a changing Wu say no, that's not th. So there there has typically been abroad sort of classic liberalism: Free Elections, rule of law. Justice isblind. Democratic norms, checks and balances. H Protection of LibertyGovernment is there to make sure that people don't intrude upon the lifeliberty in pursuit of happiness, and in recent years this has been under attackfrom both the left and the right, religious and irreligious. So callin.Before asking you what you think and asking Justin what he thinks Callin,where have you seen this sort of classic liberal American Republicanism,not the party but the idiology wherehave? You seen this devalued onboth the left and the right. The question Kavin, I think we see onthe left, especially the Pushtord Communism, push towards socialism orthe push toward. We don't want to work through politics,as we know it in the west of checks and balances, and things like that if itdoesn't produce the desired end, so the end ultimately justifies the means. Ifthe end is a vision for equality, whether that be in terms of race orclass or gender or ethnicity or...

...whatever, you want to say there orhistoric wellgess class in their money, Um that, then we just we have to do whatwe have to do to be able to get there. So that's the basic push on the left.The push from the right might be a little bit more surprising and it'salso a pushed toward the end saying what is the point of liberty if itdoesn't produce virtue if it doesn't produce something worth valuing? So thebelief is: Look at liberty gone to seed in this country. It's lost its telloss.It's lost its purpose. Um, there's no vision, no, no collective vision forthe good life. What we need to do is to reinstitute a commonly shared goal ofwhat we're trying to accomplish what we're trying to inculcate here andthere's a belief that liberty has become, or liberalism classic Liberalsmhas become itself an end that is destructtive toward tradition. So agood example of this would be often conversations about public schooleducation versus especially classical Christian education and the differences.Well, if public school education is a kind of market place of ideas where ourculture can come together, moving towards certain certain commonnorms, then protestantism or Christianity or traitional.Christianity can be a part of that. But a lot of people don't believe.That's what's happening anymore with public education. They believe thatit's actually trind to push an alternate vision of the good life thatis threatening to traditional Christianity. Therefore, we need toproduce other institutions that will push people toward a better, more God,honoring gold. So I think what you're saing from the right is simply a basicbreakdown of trust that, as Christianity recedes in this culture,liberty becomes an end to itself and therefore becomes deeply damaging topeople, including Christians, and I, I can definitely say wh when I canread some of He- The people on this Um on this side of things, especiallyPatrick Denen. I have a lot of sympathy with what they're saying I don't. Idon't in the end typically agree with them, and certainly there are much moreextreme versions of this. We've talked about this going full blown intoordaining, God's law Um, which you could talk about. I guess if we want to,but that's M, but the versions that denine and others will push. I mean Ihave a lot of just natural sympathy toward, even if, in the end, I don'tagree with all their conclusions. Justin are you for or against DavidFrenchism, I'm sure you Lov that yeah. Youfollowed that debate from a year or so ago. Yeah H, I didn't follow all of theens and outs, but I think I'm more inclined towards David French than hisopponent there, and yet you know wouldn't say everything the way thatDavid would or would have. You know some fears that David wouldn't Um, Ithink Patrick Denens Book. What is it my liberal UN failed is really worth reading and reallyworth thinking through. As I read it, I thought I think theseare plausible arguments and classical liberalism is open to these critiquesor vulnerable to these critiques, and yet I don't think it's ever sufficient forus to be able to pull colds in all of the things potentially wrong with aside without thinking of what is the alternative, because there may not be abetter alternative, we don't have eutopianism. This is nothaving on earth, so I do think lassical Liberalsm has its faults and itsvoibles, and perhaps there are inherent Um and irredeemable, but I have not yetseen something that seems more compelling or has less problems than itm. You know what one thing that I think would be great is if we had a rediscovery of the socraticdialogues. Perhaps that's not what you were, anticipating that I would say,but reading Plato, an Plato was wrong, andso many things especially politically, but he gets you thinking in a creativeway about why you think that he's wrong, and can you show that he's wrong Um? Ithink that's it's! It's a tried and true way of exercising our mind and trying to compogrips with what we believe and why we believe and and how to argue and how tothink through various things. So that would be my recommendation. I thinkjust in a lot of that is a function of Internet culture, because it it's veryeasy to be able to criticize and to Poe hoals, but rather, let's not beconstructive on that. So I I'm open all kinds of differentalternatives to what that would look like Kevin. Do you think there's someoverlap here into how we approach capitalism almost as if it's been sonormative for so long that we really...

...can't even understand the world withoutit, and so we take advantage of classic liberalism to talk about how terribleit is. But, like Justin's point, we don't know what the alternative I wedon't even remember Wen- have living memory of what the alternative is, eventhough plenty of people fought in World War, two on behalf of Classic LiberalismEssentially Against. Well, thankfully, wet didn't fightagainst communism in that case, but certainly against facism and against Umsort, well, obviously, the Japanese Emperor and that totalitariangovernment as well. So it's not like you could even assume in our life. NotI mean our lifetime, yes, but in everybody's lifetime today that classicliberalism was a given, but I just I see something similar with withcapitalism, where you don't remember what it's really like withoutcapitalism. Well, people don't understand yeah what the alternativesare and that the things that we enjoy are are precarious. Civilization is precarious, thin, wre we're seeingthat more and more each day and the things that we enjoy and the freedomsthat we enjoy uh we're not the case for most of humanhistory. So when we talk about classicliberalism and this fusion of at the founding of Protestant principales andclassic republicanism and locky an liberalism- yes, I think there's always open forChratique and in liberalism at its best welcomes that critigue. But, as youguys have been saying, you have it both from the left now quite explicitly. This is from Richard Dalgado, JensStephantic and critical race theory and introduction. They say, unlike traditional civilrights discourse, which stresses incrementalism and Stepby step progress,critical race, thee questions, the very foundations of the liberal order,including equality theory, legal reasoning, enlightenmint, rationalismand neutral principles of constitutional law. So the very upfrontsaying no wr we'rewe're, not a part of this program and you have from theright so a Amari sorred Omari. I think that's howyou say his name on here. It all the time he w's the one who wrote the piecea year ago against David Frenchism and for those of you who don't know whichis probably most normal people Um David friench, is a conservative reform,evangelical writer and they were arguing about what was it drag QueenStory Hour at a library out in California, and David French wasbasically saying yeah, I think that's horrible and I think in our liberal order and society. You know people are going to have freedom tochoose that and we need to persuade people to do otherwise and show whyit's not the good, an the true and the beautiful Inamari who is um part ofthose who are sometimes called Catholic integrulists wanting to see a strongerfusion between Catholicism and the state said well, no, we neewe need toimpose the highest good in virtue upon this and then from the reformed right.I read a piece not too long ago called the heresy of liberal democracy, and Idon't know if the author was theonymous, but certainly kind of leaning in thatdirection that he said liberalism was not neutraland it was a different kind of religion and true Christianity and biblicalChristianity would not just simply be respected, but in some ways would be privilege now was privileged for mostof our country's history, but that many of the beliefs that are inherent inclassic liberalism are not supported by Biblical Christianity. So we o need todudicate all of that. But I do think it's instructive, because underneath a number of the debates, N Ow,particularly thinking of those on the right who are kind of on the same teamin a lot of other areas, are arguing about whether or not it still can besalvaged or without the same virtue that the country used to have that thesystem doesn't work and at some point we'll have our good friend Ohn teLemanon here, because Joneth and I have a a long standing he's much morenegative about John Locke than I am the beef. It's like a legitimate B: It's alegitimate John Lock beef I'll bring in Greg Forster and he'll really come onmy side. Ol Help You I'm a John Lock thing w. What do you guys think aboutthis? Throw it back to you guys and it has to do with this same subject. Oneof t, the reasons why I think history and the founding is so uniquelyimportant in America. okayevery country...

...cares about their history and they havepride in certain people and Events and patriotism. But it really is the casethat America, uniquely was founded on an I idea and ot. An ideal and Alenelsomakes this case too part of what I mean a huge part of what makes us Americans is not least no ideals. It's not whatyou look like a it. America hasn't been blood, an soil, that's not what makesan American course you have patriotist Tho your land and all, but that it'snot been blood or so it's been. You can come from anywhere legal channels. Do it probably, you cancome and you can be an American, but there is something to being in Americanand and in large part, it's agreeing to celebrating loving and lotting theseideals, and so yes, we're always going to argue about history and what toemphasize and whatnot and historians will get into the MINUSIA of whathappened all of that's proper inlegitimate. But I do think, asAmericans, we face a unique threat when we have lose any sort of agreed upon history.We don't even know when our founding was. We don't know the nature of ourfounding, because that is what makes Americans Americans now. This is we'rewe're Christians and that's far more important than our nationality in beingAmericans, but for a nation state to hold together, that's not bound byethnicity, it's not bound by religion, it's not bound by all having the sameblood and soil you're left with being bound by a shared ideal in history, andwhen you lose that you lose any sense that you're anything like a cohesive nation. W Am Ioverstating the dangers here, Justin. No, I think you're exactly right and bensaassumed. The three of US admire,whatever you think of him. I think he is exactly right that America, at least in the last fiftyyears, has undergone a civixs one, O one crisis, that we don't Catac ise in a sense are students or children into the basics ofof cevixs. I heard him say recently that th a significant portion- I can'tremember the number of young people, don't even believe in the FirstAmendment right now because to to have unfittered liberty of speech, not onlynot threatening violence against somebody's physical person, butthreatening violence against their expressive. Individualism H issomething that should be prohibited. So when the next generation to overuse acliche doesn't even believe in the First Amendment, then I think we'rewe're really entering into a cultural crisis, and I think you're right KevinwAmerica is founded on an annied deal in an idea and once you lose that even atthe most basic level, it's not just the ONOMAS and ca like tegalists, who arearguing an intellectual level about this. But it's the rank and file highschool student who things? U expressive, individualism is a non negotiable andanything that runs counter to that should be prohibited. That's adangerous spot for us to be the other. Did you hear my phone ring?Yes S at well, I so I have just a fewpeople are cued up with with their own ringtone, so that was my wife when itrings it says Pretty Woman I could show. I could show you that Ijust D n't. I don't want you to think that someone else gets that ringtonejust keep that in a little real color. I won't say which one of you gets: TheDARTH VATER thheaty breathing. Actually I don't know if you everlisten to that. I I actually had that as my ringtone for Jason Holopolis fora timebecause when he was my associate pastor, I felt like when he was callinghehe might have something bad to tell me well youre, so crisis. That's got tobe me, then, because, when Justin calls you it's probably to tell you, you'vesold a bunch more books. When I call you it's because there's somethingwrong at TGC and your or Gairman that's true. That's the problem: Wantto be the Huster Fight, Co. o I getthat oanything anything left on with her liberalism. We didn't reallyget into teonomy, maybe another timwle to a proper, deep dive on that, and whyall three of US would not call ourselves theonymouscorrect anythingJustin. You want to say about m what...

...what do you predict? The husker'srecord is going to be: How much will they lose by to Ohio State? How muchdoes Kevin Warren want them to lose by? I hope you did see pet forty's responseto say. Nebraska's whining is just proof that Nebraska is not back. Sorry,Ju e Yeah he's got a terrible journalist. Ahe went to Mazoo, so I'm not offended yeah. I don't know if he'll be playingCumson for the National Championship, but hopefully we'll at least get to theplayoffs yeah perpetually ofteistti cusker fan. It seems, like everybody e whittered bythe way, is in the beginning of the season. Whenh there 's NBA season andAF l season just Rara. My team is incredible. This is going to be theyear and by the end of the year they're just we are. We are terrible. This isnot worth it. I I hate watching sports for LAIVES,everybody doesn't, except if you a one team, yeah well for sheeps fans, itlasted all the way through the superbowl in the first game, into thefirst half of this last week, and then it was e, we're so terrible. What'sanybody doing around here? I hate this and then of course, it's imiraculousand now I' again Harris and Buckker Pride Day exactly exactly. Oh, mygoodness car my Nisse team last year, I wish I had D HEM EA here, int get no,but the baress one they're, two, an O. surprisingly. Okay, we'll talk aboutbooks here, g twenty minutes left all right in our last minutes. Here wewant to talk about some books and I thought it would be fun to explore withyou men what are some of the books that were really formative for you. When youwere a young Christian, we I it's, isn't it the case that books that welove? They have not only to do with what we read, but when we read them and sometimes they may be the best books, or maybethey were just the right books for us at the right time. So what were some ofthose? Probably not when you were a kid, though, maybe you read some great books.Certainly the heidumber catechism was influential for me when I was growingup, but whenever you started getting really serious about your faith, maybethat's and of high school. Maybe that's college, maybe that's early twenties.What were some of the the formative Christian books for you Colin? What do you have on your list?Oddly Enough Kiin, I actually do have a Heidlberg catechism question, for youan come back to that in the NLI. I want to ask you our our church did three. Ithink it was twenty seven o twenty ight, twenty nine, something like that fromthe Helbur catechism this last week we recited them, which included the lineabout all of the evils. God sends us ID love to have your response on that linefrom the HEOP CANTEGASN B'cause we're going to discuss it in our home group.Okay, so well, you're! Thinking about that. I know you've already writtenabout this and teach on it. So you can only just give me chapter and verse.Lord, I su in t say what Lords Day ten a question asked for twenty seven andtwenty eight. What do we understand by the Providence of God that one thatwhat Sho Dan Yep? That's the one e young lady never present power of God,by which he holds as with his hand, having an earth and all creatures andso rules over them that leave him blade, rain and drought, fruitfull and lenearsprosperity and poverty, health and sickness? All things in fact come to usnot by his, not by chance wit from his fatherly hand. Yes, that's it and then, and then yeah th, thespecific, but specifically the sending of the evils. That's why I want to hearfor me about later. Okay, so I believe it. I believe I kno I. I want to knowhow to just talk about it with our group Um, so biblically, so woky findwhetre is going to do it now. Give me the explanation now: How do we talkabout it? Bibically I was gonna. I was going to have people open up the biblesand just do like a workshop where they talked through. How would you build aconsensus around this? So how would you guide us n that yeah well Piper's gothis seven hundred page book on Providence Coming Out, you can read the good news we almostforgot, or I I basically posted that chapter on Providence. If you, Google,me in Providence, you'L y'L nmind it somewhere on my blog, but I meanthere's lots of if disaster, what is it for Mamis? Is it thatdisaster comes o city? Has a Lord Knot caused it in Izea that he says good andevil? Have they not come from the Lord's hand? I think the evil there isis raw. Now it's you understand. It's not. The Lord is enacting moral evil. Ithink it's a figure of speech, meaning all things come from his hand, but wecertainly see examples. Even evil spirits do his bidding yeah. I wasthinking about soul, yes, ically...

...thinking about Saul, go bt, the Farout,Aro and hardening his hearts, and the devil leaves to get permission beforehe can act and job so every so I would you could do a words,not a work, so you do a verse study and Look Up Lots of verses, there's dozensof them that show Oky wow. The Lord really does have sovereign control overall of this and then at a theological philosophicallevel. I often try to go help. People see. However, you look at you're reallydealing with some greater good argument. Some greater good theotisy people shyaway from that Um that strong language of God's sovereigntys sending evilbecause they they want to fall back on the theotisy, some kind of libertarianfree will or somehow God was not the origination. In his decree of thesethings, I want to help people see no a a better theotisy, a bettergreater good is not our free will but God's glory. Ow Both have theirexestential issues and problems, but I'd rather have the existentialproblem be okay. I I need help getting used to a God. That's like this for it who works so for his glory thanthe existential problem being well. Why would God allow this kind oflibertarian free will when he knew that it was just going to run amuck, be myshort answer? No, that's exactly what I was looking for and now you've done myjob on Wednesday elgeo as one boos a been hoomitive, for I looks for me, sodid not grow up in a particularly observant Christian home. When I wassaved at age, fifteen did not wasn't really discipled as a reader, so prettymuch. Everything is from college on and I think it's easy for me to take forgranted the fact that I was involved within a within a crew movement wherewe were reading w through winggard and systematic theology as a small group.So that's one. It was influential for me Um and also where I was in a churchwhere I would ask the pastor hey give me your recommendations on what whatbiographies? I should read so pretty much in those short years of collegeand then early adulthood. While I was M starting out in my career atChristianity today, this woill be the list of books that that wereinfluential Roin, Bayton's, biography, I' Martin Luther then later I remember years later, my wife and I were marriedand at one point I said, do you ever wonder about this big biography ofJonathan Edwards that I'm reading George Marnston and she's like yeah?But I just didn't think to ask I mean we just we did not grow up in an environmentwhere you would have talked a lot about Jonathan Edward, so that biography washugely influential. Some of the college books that circulated a lot-and I don't know there seem to be different books that become, must reedswithin college ministries. I guess and college churches for us it wasbonhafferits cost of discipleship and then, as as a major in European history,I ended up writing a lot about bonhaffer and other an of opponents ofthe Nazis from from the Protestant perspective and then also that's whereI picked up Dostaavski and um his brothers Carmosof in particular. Soin the last one I'd mentioned, which was hugely influential in terms of mymy career and then ultimately, even I keep going back to it today in booksthat I'm writing would be a Carl Henry's, uneasy conscience of modernfundamentalism so yeah. That was it's just kind of amazing to me of how theLord well, I guess I may put it this way. I can go back and cite a lot ofother books. I read during this time that were not formative to me, which isinteresting because in retrospect I was not nearly as discerning as I thought Iwas at the time there were still a lot of things theologically that were up inthe air for me, so these were the formative ones, meaning they're theones that I still stand by today, O that's good, a good list and I onlyhave a few of those most of those I I know of, but not on my liss. What aboutyou justin over some of the formative Christian books in your earlyMaturation Years Yeah my Bac Acount's a little bitsimilar to collins an they grew up in a mainland church. I think one differencewas that my mom is a very h: Godly Active Evangelical Bible, Studileader sort of person, so I canhad both of those worlds, not a huge Christianreader. I don't think growing up...

...that. I can recall I'm sure there werebooks that are formative, that slipp my mind now, but in high school it wasbooks more like acrossing, the switch blade by David Wolkerson and his ministryis. Actually, how mymom came to t Lord enn Nineteen D, Seventies, Christian sports biographis, like TeveTraveki, who was a nigger Mankey, Hor harshiser ididthat on but Tom Osborne's more thanwinning. When you have one of the Winningis programs, you can write abook called more than winning. I don't know Nebraska Coo, which coal writemore than winning right now, but those sort of books that you kn w theyweren't profown. They were well now. They have to say yeah we're we're aboutmuch more than winning for sure iting's, not the only thing you know those books. I think that theLord used them to number one say that God exists, Godmatters, the Gospe is real. The Gospel can change your life that you shoulddidicate yourself to the Lord that I think there was some undertone of youcan be a successful accomplished person and not be weird and still believe inthe Lord and tell other people about him. So th that sort of FC a world thatI existed in an high school was formative for me and th. The literaturethat came along with it Thinkin College, the first serious bookthat I read is as a freshman. This is at a public university from a atheisticprofessor and H. Western cive was reading Augustine'sconfessions, which is part of the curriculum because of how formative itis and just fill in ove with that book and have never lost. I love for thatbook. Part of my story is being at a secularuniversity and growing in my faith, having to basically study apologetics on my ownin order to know if I really did believe this andwhat ore arguments that I can use so William Lank Craig's, reasonable faithwas really significant for me back then, in the the late nineties, midthe laghtnineties, of course, John Paper's books, th, the TRILAGKINDOF is three biggestearly onboogs future grades, pleasure's guide desiring God that opened up to mea wholly way of that thinking talking and also opened up other literature,Grudam's, systematic theology, I think, was similar that were just incategories. I ever thought through Christology before never thought through. What is mymillennial position? So gruna systematic theology was the firstopportunity to really think through systematically the various doctrines ofthe faith, connect them in a a daxological way, and then one of thethings I appreciate about Wain's work is that he also had recommended readingto go on and read. Kelvin's institutor read: Hoder, read Bobink M, so a couple of other names, e jerybridges a at a popular level just on what it means to be godly what it meansto be holy in John Frame's, doccrine of the knowledge of God, introduced me to thinking about apestomology and knowledge in a really interesting dipical way. Ithoughtsomethos kind of divide the the high school years and the college years,and then we could do another session n Beyond College and Seminar Yeah. Weshould do that next. Well, we and we also need to do one on formative,Christian music, because apparently im thinking about this- that's how I spentmy high school wasn't being formed by books. I was being formed by music inlot of good ways: Go heak. We should do that. What what Christian concerts haveyou been to? Oh Yeah? Have you ever been to Rebeca Saint James Concert,Jeff more in the distance? Oh Love, Jeff more in the distance Huh Yeh yeahment to Jars ofclay a couple of time. Okay, e'll say that for another time,so formative Christian books. So I I grew up in a R CH church, but Evangelical Church andgood family that I you know wasn't reading Christian books. I mean, Ithink I started having a quiet time each day when I was maybe ajunior senior in high school and I picked up a devotional by campus lifeor something just had some some readings and some quotes and remember, reading that couldn't tellyou anything about it, but it was helpful at the time and h when I gotinto college course. I went to a Christian college and majored inreligion, so I was reading lots of things there, but outside of what I wasassigned, I I've told this story many times I'll,be very brief. I was a freshman. I was talking with some guys on my floor. Onenight, my roommate, who was a nominal Christian on really serious about Jesus,that I could tell a guy who was a heatonist, not the good, John Piperkind, but H. I want to have sax that's what my life is about. I did come intomy room one time when he was in my roommate's bed with his girlfriend, sohe was true to his principles and then...

...a guy who was into crystals and RickyLake youave to look up Ricki Lake if you're not of our GNX age. So we were all up one night and theywere kind of hounding me with typical questions. What about the tribesman,who never he hr heard of Jesus? And how can you believe in how and all sorts of questions- and I got donewith that night and I thought I've been a Christian, my whole life and, u knownobody's fault, but I feel like boy. I I'm not well equipped to to answerthese questions to know what I believe and why I believe it so I picked upthose books. Ivp Had t hose two classic books by Paul Little Know what youbelieve know why you believe I read them. underlyine them outlined them was just really and I haven't looked atthem for twenty years, so I don't know, what's all in them, twenty five yearsnow, but was helped by them and then this is not everyone's story, but Imade a little bit of a jump from those to Kelvin's institutes. My my dad had callvas insthe tooth onthe shelf and I got his copy and brought it to school, and I thoughtwell. I there's fifteen hundred pages three ofive pages a day and can miss one day a week. I can get through this in a yearand that was absolutely revolutionary for me not only the content, but justthe idea. I can go back and read these old books for myself and I can you know, not understand halfof it, but I can't understand half of it, and so that's no exaggeration to saythat changed my life. I read that my freshman year and then I got thebattles translation. So I read the beverage translation. Then I read thebattles: Translation, my the next year 'cause. I thought I usually go throughthis again, so certainly Calvin's institutes were very formative for mein college. I also you know friend introduced me to banner of truth and sostarted reading, so so some of the ones that that come to mind, certainly a lotof Loy Jones preaching in preachers. That's a Zonderven book, but his hislectures on the puritans his lectures on revival some of his church historystuff. I just ate it up now. I would look back now and say: Yeah Loy Joneswas lacking in some ways as a historian, but he also did something reallypowerful with history and that is to inspire Christians with Christianhistory. So I love that book on the PURITANS and h loved reading enMurray's, too valuunt biography of Lloy Jones. That was really an and I startedreading some Edwards Uh. Oh then, the other person to mention is David Wells, some point in my college years I firstread God in the wasteland, which I think was nineteen ninety fourcolleagues yeread Thowas in College Irethas in college, and then I read noplace for truth, which was the first one. Then I read losing our virtues. Ithink those were the three that came out that were out before I went toseminary and that's one of the reasons I went to Gordon conwells because DavidWells was there, but those I mean that was just eye opening. Oh, I cannot th. This is.This is true. This is this is right. I this is. This analysis makes sense tome. I was later on the Piper game than you guys were because I saw Piper nothim. Personally, I saw his books in a Christian Bookstore and my basicphilosophy was: if I could buy it in a local Christian book store, it wasprobably a bad book again at what age. What age was this th that I had that philosophy? YeahYeah, when I was like a freshman in Colle, yeahthat thatwas, my fa, it itit wasn't a terrible philosophy to have. But when someone first said hey haveyou heard this John Piperbook and I saw meditations of a Christian Hednis. Itold this a Jon before I mean my first thought was: that's garbage. Obviously it's in a Christian bookstore,it's about being a hetonist, and so it wasn't until seminary that I read thatand I read future grace, which and yeah so and got on lots of Piper tapes andbooks. It was massively helped. I noticed that none of us mentioned C S. Lewis. Now we've read a lot of CLewis. I could have Oky. I coun mention Mer Christianity in college okaytell,me too, no. I was going to make a point there that you know th the Piper KellerGeneration. Massively I mean their Lewis is one of their top two or threeguys, and I read all those books, but I Iwouldn't put him as formative but help forest unity was oneof those. It was like Piper Lewis Bonhaor, at least in the collegeministry. I was in, and so they were kind of the right of passage and all ofthose Cavin have you spokenspoken with...

Sarazastra, yet about David Wells forthe profile she's right now about Hiord, okay, well, she'll be in touch she's.Working on that now, O good. I can give some some good stories and, and my wifehad his wife, I think, as a professor at goring to college, I had no idea.Okay, Itald o going to college also go okay. Last question fun question foryou, so let me set this up. We are recently on a passer's retree andwhenever I laid our passers retreats and my philosophy of passergs are Treatis,have fun, try not to do work and spend some time sharing and praying with eachother. So I'm always thinking each year. 'cause there's a lot of us who go on t:It's not just passors its kind of other senior staffs. It's like fourteenfifteen guys and I'm thinking of ways for us to share that. Isn't just hey,we'll all listen to you for forty five minutes as you share that gets tedious.I've done different things so this year I had everyone write five questions put 'em in a hat.They could be serious questions, they could be fun questions and we pull hemout and we go around the circle and we do it for an hour and then we do itlater in the day, and you take a minute or two to answerthese. These questions. Well, it I don't know what it says about our ourour jobs, but the most common question that was in there was, if you weren't apastor. What would you be doing so? I I don't know if we were all thinkingabout home and wonder what else I could do middle of the pandemic n eein in themiddle of our passers atreat. Oh someone else wants to know what elseyou would do, but what what would you men be doing and try to think outsidethe box? Not just well I'd, be an editor or something else. You'll put itin a different career, a d. We Guess Each Other, Oh yebeokay. Okay, let's dothat we're going to start justing. What do you guess for calling? Now? L, letme give you this proviso. It has to be within the realm of possibility. So I'mnot going to say: Oh you don't want to do that. An just sa t hollond's goingto be in you know the northwestern football coach Co be in the ream ofpossibility if ye had taken a different course, O r Um sure, but I mean I'-just hang not you're, not the center for the Lakers yeah. Well,that okay, Yeah Mal modeld, I mean probably more likely an models for all sorts of understand:okay, okay, okay, Juton, Yes for Collin the color commentator for thenorthwestern wild cats- yeah, that's pretty that's pretty fair! My minewould have been would have started out of e baseball general manager or asports writer or m more recently, understanding myself,the last ten years definitely could have been a football coach. I was goingto guest football coach yeah. I guess I heard O in high school line. Coach wasgoing to be my second O e yeah. I coan see that so, except I would never havehad the size cable to play any of those positions. What Wald you like aboutthat? HOW WOULD THAT FIT COM owoball coaching yeah? Well, I I don't think I realized untilthis is, I guess, the fun thing, but also the it was not really a what if I there's a combination of footballcoaching with strategy and people and motivation and leadership and quickthinking, and that just I love that mixture of thingsand and it's also an all consuming kind of thing, and I tend to gravitatetoward work. That's all consuming and my parents are that way as well, so Ijust wouldn't have done it because I could never have played at the collegelevel, and I didn't really have a sophisticated high school program, butI definitely thought in high school yeah. I could be like a baseballgeneral manager or something you kno. What would you be? Would you be a qutplayer's coach if you're the football coach, or would you be like old school? Throw you around. That's a that's funny.I think if you UM, so I don't know what you guys are like when you think ofyour coaches or you think of your teachers and how that affects you today.But when I look back, I always gravitate gravitated towardthe same profile, which is a person who was known for being really demandingreally hard. But if you submitted to that discipline it would pay off andthen you would develop a close personal relationship and you would see thembehind the curtain that they really only ever wanted what was best for you, as basically my management style todayfor better or worse and so yeah, I would have been, you would think, not aplayer's coach, but actually it would have been a player's coach. I think,back in my high school coaches, I mainly think about profanity...

...s, idid't hat. I didn't have to deal with that. So, okay, all right. What what would justinbe used? Car Salesman, nothing wrong with that. Let me s! Well, I don't know if this is farenough out of your field, but a history teacher I was Assur as that.I was going to guess that okay wwh, what e you got for US Justin. What do I think I would have e yeahyeah or just yeah? What wore to be your other career. I was e desiring God intrying to think of. I knew I wasn't. Goingto stay, Eiron, God forever. Ireally was thinking about career Pas and being a professor, maybe seminaryprofessor histyper professor, would be in the realm of possibility or anassociate pastor, who was at a large church in charge of like a seminarylevel, O apprenticeship, not the mean preaching pastor but AGF thirtyWELLYEAH YEP or Tom Steller Bethelhem, that that sort of feels seemd like thatcoald fit me wbet. I ended up, went into publishing what you're doing t theyeah now you're doing it through books for millions of people. I think, if I you know, take it out ofthe ministry realm altogether. I'd probably be a high school educator.Just got so many educators in my family, both of my parents were teachers andbrothers and sister or teachers, so that Basketball Teo as well. I don't know if I could actually pullthat off. I could I could. I could see you being the history teacher, slashbasketball, coach, you just uh, okay, guys were going to watch glory today. We did that a lot in high school, the back of the class and draw upplaces for this afternoon, Si think of one of my h, my social studies,teachers, who was the swim coach and H. Somehow he had a class inelective class in high school on the fifties and the sixties, which was a it,was basic yeah. It was like fifty sixty seventies and it was about three weeks of the class, as Irecall, was him bringing in his beetle's albums like looking at the reedles talkingabout the Beatles. That's why you hate n? In imagine that's where that camefrom tday were Goingo n season two of hapfydays. Yeah know how this happ- I don't know ifI've ever told anyone this El story, but I remember going to like theauditorium to see all the Beatles Parafphernalia and I'm not sure howthis got through whatever at my public school, but it was whatever thatpicture was. I don't know if that's an album or a picture. What of John andYoco stark naked? That was very scarring mm. For me, Ithought how did this end up in my my high school curriculum so yeah? I haveyou're uncovering a lot of issues cain. Okay, do I get to guess for you N, yeah,okay, I we've already mentioned him a numberof times on the Pon CAS, but I could have seen a Bensass career for you, apolitical career but would have an overlap with the education. So youdefinitely could have been a lawyer like a weatherspoon type, so lawyerpolitician, academic Netroam, so our consrevative columnist for Los Angeles Times or something likethat, okay, Um and just ou know our ourlisteners. We did not share any of these ahead of time. Just must knoweach other. Well so, yes, I was going to say a lawyer very unspiritual. I did study political science andcollege. I worked on some campaigns. What did me in was to kind of go thatroute. You had to basically go do a study semester in DC, and you worked with some your staffforand that whole thing just seemed really nothing about that seemedattractive to me. Um, you know being maybe the canidhate might have seemedattractive, but really, when I thought about it, it was it was the speaking,the teaching that that was the part that that I like being able to talkabout these ideas and the things I believed and you w then the Lord justcemented hey. There is a profession where you can do that, and you can doit about things much more important, but yes, I've thought before. What's that make a lot less money? Thatis true. I have thought before that. I don't know what type of lawyer, but Ithink I wouldhave enjoyed law school and h thinking through argumentsreading through Manutia trying to find what's the the needle in a haystackhere I would enjoy that and presenting...

...arguments in front of a judge or a juryand that pressure in being on the spot. I think all of that I could I could seeenjoying I I would. I would help support you in your various ministriesas high school teachers and football coaches. So there we go. You learn a littlesomething new about us, Anyany UH last word for US NOI'm, I'm pretty I'mpretty impressed that we could all guess. I did not think we were going todo that. That was inspired very inspired, okay!Well next week, um we will be recording at a differenttime. Of course you listening won't know that but I'll be interviewing LordWilling, James Eglington, on his new biography of baving because of the timechange across the ocean. JUSTICON may not be there, but I am about halfwaythrough the book and finish it this week and looking forward to that, andso we will all be together. Hopefully very soon we have some other authorsand great books to talk about and auther to interview later throughoutthis season, be Colin Justin wonderful to be with you all. Thank you to Aurlisteners glorify God enjoy ever go. Read a good book.

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