Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode 15 · 1 year ago

Discerning My Vocation, with Dr. Julius Kim


In this episode of Life and Books and Everything, Kevin DeYoung, Collin Hansen, and Justin Taylor are joined by Dr. Julius Kim—President of The Gospel Coalition—to discuss each other’s seminary experiences, issues in evangelicalism, how to discern one’s vocational calling, how to be a better preacher, and, last but not least, which books have been most influential in the life and ministry of Dr. Kim.

This episode of Life and Books and Everything is brought to you by Crossway, a publisher whose goal is to publish gospel-centered, Bible-centered content that will honor our Savior and serve his Church. The Crossway title we want to highlight in this episode is, Weep With Me: How Lament Opens a Door for Racial Reconciliation by Mark Vroegop, with contributions by Thabiti Anyabwile, Trillia Newbell, Jarvis Williams, John Onwuchekwa, Collin Hansen, Mika Edmondson, and more. In an effort to bridge the canyon of misunderstanding, insensitivity, and hurt, Mark Vroegop writes about the practice of lament. Vroegop invites readers to mourn with him over the brokenness that has caused division and to use lament to begin the journey toward a diverse and united church. Pick up your copy of Weep With Me by Mark Vroegop today.


Weep With Me: How Lament Opens a Door for Racial Reconciliation by Mark Vroegop [0:00 - 1:43]

Where we went to seminary and the different branches in evangelicalism [1:43 - 27:58]

Wrestling with my vocational calling [27:58 - 39:38]

How to become a better preacher [39:38 - 52:10]

What books most influenced Julius Kim over the years and what he is reading now [52:10 - 58:07]

Julius Kim’s prior wedding band career [58:07 - 1:06:38]

Books and authors that have influenced Julius Kim:

Knowing God by J. I. Packer

How Should We Then Live?: The Rise and Decline of Western Thought and Culture by Francis Shaeffer

Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin

Institutes of Elenctic Theology (3 Volume Set) by Francis Turretin

The Heart of a Servant Leader: Letters from Jack Miller by John C. Miller

Influenced by Ed Clowney, Henri Nouwen, and Eugene Peterson.

Books that Julius Kim is reading right now:

Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow

Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America by Ibram X. Kendi

Institutional Intelligence: How to Build an Effective Organization by Gordan T. Smith

Resources mentioned:

Preaching the Whole Counsel of God: Design and Deliver Gospel-Centered Sermons by Julius Kim

Reformed Theology in America: A History of Its Modern Development by David F. Wells

Everybody is Collan Hanson here, one ofthe hosts of life and books and everything then you're going to enjoythe episode that we have for you today. Talking with my new boss, Julius Kimthe President of the Gospel Coalition before we get on with the pod Gasswanted to tell you about a new title that I think you want to check out frormy friends that crossway the book is weep with me. How lament opens a doorfor racial reconciliation certain by Mark Voga, Mark rokup is the pastor ofCollege Park. Church in Indianapolis is a friend WHO's, a council member forthe Gospel Coalition. This book is an effort to bridge the canyon. I thinkit's very timely of misunderstanding. INCI INSENSITIVITY and hurt on issuesof race relations and mark introduces the concept, liplical concept of lamentand to be able to help us to bridge that Canyon. He invites us to mournwith him over the brokenness that is caused Davision and and uses lament tobegin that journey toward a diverse in United Church. The book also includesprayers of lament from a number of different people, John on WulchechaIsaac, Adams, Danieken Mikedmonson, and I also contributed one of those laments.So the book from crossway weep with me alament opens a door for racialreconciliation by Mark Rogap check it out now, on with the show readings and salutations, welcome backto life and books and everything loyal listeners, I'm going out o Linthere with the plurel could be singular thanks, Mo'm utgood good to have youall with us. We have a very special treat or very first and hopefully notour very last thut opportunity to have a guest into the virtual studios. Wehave with us the right honorable esteen reverend doctor, whatever titles lPresidente, El Guapo known to some Julius Him, Julius, very good to haveyou here on life and books, and everything we'll be hearing from Juliusin just a moment since Julius comes to us from the world of the seminary,still has a role there, though, now president we're thankful. President ofthe Gospel Coalition, I thought I'd start calling and Justin love to hearfrom you. What was your experience in seminary? Any you know listeners whoare wondering about seminary? Is it worth it? What did you gain? Where didyou go? What was that like for you or a big fan of seminaries here on the show,I'l call and start with you? I graduated Kevin From Trinity,Evangelical, Divinity School back in two thousand and ten so Julius, and Ihave that in common though he was getting a PhD while I was getting theEMDIV, but one of the big advantages of of seminary, especially etrinity's, nothuge, but it's also not small. You have a chance to be able to get to know yourprofessors. In many cases I was really blessed to be hired by one of myprofessors at the end of a seminary, Don Carson and then one of my othermajor influences and mentors which I share with Julius in this regard isJohn Woodbridge, and so one of the things. I remember in addition toeverything else that I learned, which was wonderful in the EMDOF curriculum.One of the things I learned from John was not only being an eye witness ofmuch of evangelical hestery and a man of many fascinating stories, but Um. Ijust remember his encouragement to use whatever gods. Whatever gifts F, Godhad given me to build up the church not to encourage the church. My my bent asan editor and a journalist is naturally...

...analytical and often critical, and oneof the things that that John did for me was to just encourage me to to flipthat around and say use those gifts to be able to to tell encouraging stories.So he and I worked on a book together called a Godsize Vision Revival storiesthat stretch and stir which was built off that relationship that we had, andI just never forget that I mean I can look back in another another commonfriend of ours, Scott Manage Ist, a huge influence on my life, not even somuch in in what he's taught, but in his manner in his his churchmanship and theway he let his family- and I think that's one thing- that's very differentfrom what you'll often get in high school you're dipped off and yo g. Thisdifferent from your college experience in many cases, especially if you wentto a research university, but that was life changing for me in seminar and I'mreally really glad I went and I'm glad I went to Trinity Colin. I rememberyears ago you giving one great piece of advice. I mean I haven't heard anysince then, but I remember this one really stuck with me and I just thought of it when youmentioned John Woodbridge, I don't know if it came from him or it just camefrom you, but it was maybe after some time after you know, I wrote theemerchant book and I remember you saying as a young man, and we were allten years younger, then that you wanted to try to write things where it would be to your advantage tobe young or to your advantage, given your Anat in life, which really justclicked for me. That was one of the things to write. Why we're not amerghant, as you know, ted, and I were thirty or there abouts early thirties-was a plus, whereas you have thirty year olds, writing their second memoiror writing their parenting book or not that there couldn't be good gospelinsight there in your marriage or parenting book, but that w just made alot of sense and I pass it on to other people who want to write, often I'llsay, try to find what what's the hook. What's the angle, why should peoplelisten to you and it's not about your story but ouse? Who you are where youare to lend some extra interest or credibility? Was that just your insight?I think that I think that's my insiht from publishing Um just that you'llyou'll find writers who they read, John Piper, they red JI packer and then theywant to imitate them, and I think a I'm sorry, but you probably don'thave those gifts, but then, on top of that you're also probably decadesyounger than they were when they produced that, and so it's verydifficult to try to more or less compete with them in a marketplace ofideas need to write from a perspective that where your youth becomes inadvantage and S, that's why we're not emergent that young rest was reformed,trying to tell stories and observed trends that are only discernible whenyou're younger, but then, of course, that's also a viewpoint that can changewith time and now Kevin you're in a position where you can write some ofthose theological works, Um and because you've built a knowledge. I mean I'llsay this about seminary, I kind of thought. I knew some things going inthere, co Thata a good undergraduate education. I worked for four years atChristiani today before there, but I can't tell you how often I go back towhat I learned in those three years, a seminary I's so foundational to what Iknow and and it it's also enabled me to be a lifelong learner. If you learnnothing else in seminary t to Hel help you to know what to study for theLonghall in ministry and in life, and you miss something, but that's what itdid. That's what it did for me and I'm really grateful just in tell us awhatyour a seminary experience, yeah my wife and I got married insummer of ninety eight and the day after the honeymoon we moved up toMinneapolis Minnesota and became part of what was then called Te BethelhemInstitute Tbi, which is over the years now, morfed into Bethlehem college andseminary different than TMI. That was a...

...different. I was geting the same thing, but yousay: okay, although we did discover that Tabistand for traumatic, brain injury, Bot that, through ahead of Tia,probably also too much information- I mean yeah, so I'm privileged to serve on the boardof trustees. There now and really have a heart for that school and yeah. We wedon't have enough time on the PI. Gass too, enumerate all the ways in which ithas influenced me, hopefully for the good. I think the biggest thing aboutstarting with I'll just call it Bethle college andseminary Um, is that it was a church basededucational program. So, in terms of the Regura of the Exagesus, he neededto pass a Greek entrance exam to get into it. Um We're doing very serious,exagesus, very serious, theological reading, not as much historicaltheology in those days, but it was very vigorous academically, but it was alldone in the context of the local church, so you're being mentored by H, churchelders, Yo were sitting in on church meetings. Um. It had a great impact onme not only to be learning a theology of suffering from books, but to see theyoung mother with cancer dying and needing to get Gospe, hope and then,minister, to the Congegation, so that that tendency that there ishistorically to kind of separate out the church and e Academy to start mytheological education and the context where those two were deeply integratedtogether was just a wonderful gift for me, then ended up going to crossway Um and the TV I program was not designed to bea four year seminary M dv. So I ended up completing my education at thegraduate level, through RTS, through distance through traveling down takinga weeklong intensive classes before going on and doing the PhD it's GreatOkay Julius. Where did you go to seminary yeah? I went to Westminster cemeter inCalifornia, for my m did O K and then, after that I did work at Trinity, asCallen mentioned for my PhD in historiocotheology. Who was there at Westminster? California, when you werethere in whatever age you want to be yeah, Thi s. This is the early ninetieswhen I was there. We had some of the original men that came from WestmisterPhiladelphia and so for those of you that are interested in history.Westmister California was establish N, Hoanine Huden and seventy nine at thefifty year, anniversay of Westmiter Philadelphia's establishment, and sothis was the brainchild of Edben clowny. One of my mentors. I can talk about himin a little bit, but he wanted to Crete. A West Coastbranch originally was set for San Francisco, but they couldn't find the pthe property the just too expensive and not enough churches there locally tosupport this new work, so they ended up in Los Angeles, couldn't find enoughsuppor in Los Angeles, and then there was a little church down here inAscanido that had some property and some families and stuff. So that's howthey came to Escandito, also a little little trivia fact. I think they alsocame to Escanido, because our first president, Robert strimple or BobStrimpl te Systematician, was really the the HAMPIC saccessor to John Murray.Bob strimple had respiratory issues, and so living in San Francisco was justtoo moist Los Angeles had too much smog and soprovidentially San Diego worked out perfectly in terms of the temperateweather and the the the climate here in Ecanida, which we're actually a littlebit inland is a lot more like a desert. So it's a lot more dry. That's howWestmiter California ended up in Acannido California did they have avision for California right from the Getgog? I mean I cound understand. Wewant to do something outwest, but they could have said Kansas, city's, west orDallas or Denver Wa. We want to go as...

...far west as we can before touching theocean correct. So I think the vision was beyond the West for the Pacific Rim,and so their vision was to reach the world through the West Coast, at least this side of of the West Coastso or the United States, and so that was part of the original vision fromwhat I understand was they wanted to have an entree to th to the Pacific Rim,interesting yeah. So then you uh went to teds from there. I did ty a mad ll ofIEE PG work, correct, so John Johnwood Brigews, my mentor and I work with himand another fellow that you know there in Alabama Nadug Swini. That was also achurch storiin there at the time, and so he was my second reader. So I workwith dog and John on on restoration, England. So early, modern Englishhistory on the Anglican Church now come on o Il is why that area of study I mean you have.Obviously you have the interest in preaching Um and assone. You wantd tobe a pastor at the time, but what was the draw towards historicalthiology? Inparticular? Yeah? That's a good question. I therewas actually no interestd even in a PhD early on when I was getting my MDAV, Iwanted to be a pastor, and then I was always going through my m DIV, my wifeand I, as we were, praying we felt a heart to be involved with trainingleaders in countries that just didn't have as many opportunities that we dohere. For example, the United States, namely Bible colleges and seminaries,and so we started praying about potential missions work. I want ID tobe a missionary s more specifically, a missionary not only planting churches,but also training future pastors. That really was a was a heartbeat of mine ora desire of mine, and so when I mentioned it to my Mentorand Clowny, heactually suggested that I get a PhD. I had no desire to be anpaged to do a PhDand no desire for acdemic work, but he felt like that would open up more moredoors overseas as well getting up the HD. We didn't have children at the time,so he thought you know. This is the time to do it. As you get older, itgets more difficult to do a PhD, so just go. Do the PhD and then gooverseas with that PhD in hand, and little did. I know that he had actuallyother plans as well. DTOR CLOWNEY was a tremendous friendfather, father figure ETCETERAA. As I was finishing as I was finishingmy PHC working on my dissertation there in Chicago. I got a call from himsaying: There's an opening at Westmister, California, actually in PT,and because he didn't tell me this was because he was finally retiring. He hadretired several times before, but then he moved out to Scandido and teach parttime to help the practaltheagy department to be with his family. Hehad a daughter and her family here in California and he was going to leavefor good and he wanted somebody to take his place and he had thought of me asthat person. He never told me that ionly found out after he died from hisfrom his widow from jen that his desire was for me to come backto teach preaching and pastoral ministry, yet at Wesernter California.So he saw something in me that I didn't even see myself and SOM for that. I'm aexternal eternally grateful for his wisdom and leading in my life. So all that to saythat's a very long way of saying so he suggested, as you know, just andthere's not many PhDs in preaching. Unless you go overseas like to Holland,maybe en England and You Design Your own dissertation. Essentially so hesuggested tchistory bees it, the broader avenue by which you canactually bite. Um read a lot in the area of of preaching and so Lan Story. Shored I W I got connectedto John Woodbridge. I want to starte her Chistory, I wan somewone to be agood churchman. John was really influential in that area. I went toJohn to actually study reformation Tor Chistory I was I was interested in aFrench friend of Cavin and Evangelis by...

Te, nrpierre, Vire, Af r, more knownfor his is his work on government and politics and Church to Church, staterelations, less Er, greater magistrates and how o Rela an in Cavin gets a lotof that from VRA. But I was interested in him as a preacher, because even inthe sixteenth century, especially in France, he would command crowds of fivesix thousand people an evangelistic settings. Si was intrigued by that wait,a minute: here's a reformer, a friend of calten having these evangelisticmeetings of five six thousand people. So I wanted to study a little bit moreof his theology and his theelogy of preaching long and then thisis. Getting this longstory short is getting longer, unfortunately, and I was taking aSeminarwi John Werbridge on the origins of the enlightenment, a fascinating, fascinating period ofstudy. That's one of his areas of specialties, he's an inlightnmentscholar and, as we are going through the seminar n, the origins andLightment, I was fascinated by a group of English rationalist by the name ofLatitudirnarians. They were called Lantagineerians by their enemies, nowa's fascinated how they popularize their understanding of rationalreligion through especially their preaching, and so I got interested in theirsermons, started. Reading a bunch of Seventeenth Century anglicand sermonstalk about things that help put your wife to sleep when I started readingthese sermons to her, but so that that launched the wholekind of area of study in the history of preaching. So that's another area that I started.Reading more and moreupon going all the way back to Chrisis Tom,an others, but especially in the seventeenth century, Anglic inrationalism, a so my primary sources of understanding that period and theirtheology and their preaching and their understanding of the relationshipbetween Church and state and England was sermons, and I think that was kindof really the foundation of my teaching preaching so Julius. You Study JohnTillitson, then that's right! One of the major I meanhe was for the next hundred years. Ma I mean he. He was the guy that if youwere interested in English speakingpreaching H, it was him whether I mean even evangelicals liked him. Everybodywanted John Tillitson. So do you think h now? I think if anybody's heard ofhim in our circles, it'd be sort of Lattitudinarian rathlist. Is that fairor have we been too hard on him as a preacher? Yes, great question: That's essentiallymy dissertation yeah that I think the the current current assessments, O ofJauntilets and his friends are Pria little unfair. He essentially just forat least conservative agelical preachers in our in our world Johnwould come across is a fairly it's like a winter day like cold andbreezy right, that's what they call the angle, concernans of the day, just coldand breezy, emphasizing the rational parts ofreligion. He rational parts of Christianity, D, emphasizing thesupernatural, for example, emphasizing morality, orward against Octrine, it'skind of ictha the deeds over the creeds right, if we canwut say that, and sofor those of us that are interested in creeds and the importance of theintersection of creeds and deeds doctrine and life John, would come across too much as amoralist which had a proper Gospel Foundation now did John Believe theGospel, I believe so I believe so. In fact, he spent the latter years of hislife, defending himself against those who considered him a Socinian Ora, anArian antetriditarian, so he he believed in all that. So it was amatter of of a de difference in degree, not in kined. It was as emphasis rightfor his day for his time as he looked across his his his world, which wasEngland right, London and and England having gone through the wars ofreligion. You know people dying over their view of transubstantiation, forexample, or not holding trand...

...substanciation. He said: Do we really?Should we really shed blood over mystical doctrines like that? But itwasn't just the Catholics right. It was also the PURITANS opurit intersettingblood over predestination. Like really does anybody really believe it edestination? John Til Livs would say, but that's not even the point. Whywould we have to kill one another over doctors like transubstantation on thewn and the Catholics or predestination of the other hand these these puritans?So what we need for England? What we need for communal stability forpolitical, civil stability? We need a rational religion. Furthermore, this isthe onset of of the Scientif, the CIENTIFIC, the rise of science in theSeenten Centry, and trying to understand our world throughmechanistic forces and not just by faith, and so what he was afraid of wasthe g onset of not only deism but also atheism. So he said we need now. Weneed to offset not only these wars of religion, but we need to offset allthese folks that say that no way God doesn't exist, we can. We can explainwhy the world turns the way it does through mathematics and astronomy. Sohe said we need a r religion, that's reasonable, rational, but also ethicaland so there. What I trid to do is just argue in magisitation t at there arereasons why he chose to emphasize those elements of Christianity, becausethat's the context ema was in so in his context. Do I understand him absolutelynow, looking back and and thinking about our own context here in theUnited States, ore in the world is t at the approach I would take, probably not,but I think it to be good historians. We have to be fair to him in hiscontext, so I want to come back to that, but throw it open here justn in calling'cause, I mean I've had this thought before it may sound strange, but thatsome of the well secer sensitive is an old term. Now negachurch those sort of passors we could allthink of you know three or four o half a dozen prominent examples have they'resort of the Tilletsin of our day. Now it's Y, you replace rationalism withrelevance, thy'rethey're popular they're, gifted communicators, if you,if you' scratch down deep enough, there's probably yeah, not jedisoning the basicconvictions of the Gospel and yet not wanting to emphasize those thingsthat they see as divisive. Let's try to be bar bones: Let's, let's try T, let'spresent this Christianity in a way that will have maximum palatability for thepeople in our day, so you read their sermons they're going to seem asdifferent as can be from Tillitson, but I don't know Coan you ever have youever made the connection between Um Jontiletson sermons and I arek, I don'tth, don't think I have Kevin. I just want to go back to the discipline of ofhistorical theology, O no, don't hijack my thread. I want you. Do you have anything to say about Evanthan you want. Hija know nothing about Jo Kaywell. They no talk about him.What about the you know, just t discoverd, the one topic the Colindoesn't know anything about also was a great grandfather of a civilwar, Colonel No. He wasn't but io had me going there I was like. Is there atillet semin like colonel that I'm missing here, Wat's Sa low regard?That's the what I just want. Ta acto on whatyou're saying there is the value of be able to understand people in theircontext. Um It's easy to B be able to just lift UM somebody I mean. Sometimesyou can e. You can read something from somebody you're thinking this is. Thisis supposed to be that special. It really seems pretty basic to me untilyou realize. Well, it's basic because...

...that thing that that person wrote haschanged world history and you don't even understand yourself or the worldwithout this. Sometimes I feel that way about Augustine m you just Oh, thisseems kind of Oh right, 'cause he's the one who made it up for the first time,and so I just that was what I was thinking about and all this is thevalue of historical theology to be able to put people in their context,understand what issues they're addressing. So we don't run into thischallenge of being able to lift everything, and then also I mean Ipresume that it helps us to understand the first evangelicals or the awakening,because it must have been a response to this right. So I assume that ournegative views toward that era is largely because of the seeming loss ofthe heart religion, but see now we're at a time when heart religion seems tobe everything and avangelicals have a hard time connecting their heartreligion back to their creeds and so Julius. I assume you've been able tobring that all the way back, full circle being in kind of a a supremelycreedle environment like Westminster, yeah for sure. For me, it's been an interestingexercise as I moved from M. my doctoral studies, to a very, as you know, verystrong, creedle confessional environment of place like Westminster,were oftentimes. I think, frankly, unfairly e, the the the charge isleveled against us that we don't have. We have big brains, but very smallhearts and even smaller, maybe feet in thehands right and I think that's unfair, but I think it's it's it's worth atleast discussing how in each generation of avangelicalism over the centuries,at least here in America, how you've seen this kind of this kind of polepush of empasies, whether it's doctrine life. You know, personal piety, youknow I'm trying to think of that article. Maybe ows David Wells yeah,bon an article while back in that book reformed in America wher. He talksabout those three extremes right and I never saw them really as unique things, whereas was more like avendiagram right, there's the doctrinalist that really emphasizetheology and there's the transformationalist right and thenthere's the Piotiss, and I I see when I look at a Amegelicalsm in America. It'slike these. I'm remembering like this exercise machine called the boflexwhere I' ING o move. One way or another, depending on how you want to do that,these e big rubber bands, and so for me Avangelica as like these robber bands,I would stretch more TOA DOCTU's. You know emphasis or a personalpitisticanemphasis or a more transformatial emphasis, depending uponthe leadership that contexts the issues of the day, and I think, there's a lotwe can learn from history. In light of that, yeah I've often thought thatseminaries and I'm sure it's true with churches and people in general, but are are formed and have an identityaround w. What are we helping people not to be so? Some seminary is comehere because we're not liberals and others are we're, not trs the trulyreformed or were not evangelicals by that meaning W we're reformed more thanwe are eveanagelical or we're not CIPERIANS or we're not two kingdoms orH, and some of that's inevitable and I've always tried to be upfront withpeople that you know. I'm shaped by seeing my team as the the not liberals like those those are,I think, of the kind o the bad guys we're trying to guard against, at leastin church circles. It's theology going in that sort ofdirection. But I've told that to students before as they look atseminaries to just try to, and it's not that one has to be right and one has tobe wrong, but just try to gauge what they're responding to 'cause. That'sgoing to give you a flavor,...

I wante to ask Julius, but I I' lovefor calling and Justin to jump in as well, because all of us have been trained in seminarym. Some of us a gone on to do other schooling after that, and all would have a heart to pastorpeople and I'm good friends with all of you and would would come to you as mypastor at any point and yet making your first calling in vocation apastor is now hat the other, the other you three guys have have done. So howhave you thought through? Because I bet this this- this comes to a lot of guys. Um went to seminary. I wanted to be apastor and h. You very much are a pastor Jewlish. Youhave been for all these years, but y you get the the point that M I'm makingyou've seen your passoral identity first through a professor, and then youknow also serving a very meaningful way in the local church. How did youwrestle with that h? How can we help other guys wrestle with that e Don wantthem to feel like they're? Not, you know, they're a ministry failure ifthey get an MDIV and they they go into publishing or something, and on theother hand, we we don't want people to think that. Well, the real you know ifyou could be a professor, do that 'cause. I know I know a lot of guys whoare you know pastors who think the professor gig is the really sweet Gig,but then I actually know the professors that look and like a man, I would love to be a full time.Pastor that looks, I don't have to teach the same people the same thingsevery every single year. So how did you wrestle with that? Pastor, ProfessorDynamic and Galan and Justin? I know you've thought through some of the samethings in different ways. We'll start with you Julius Yeah Ca. I V thoughtabout that quite a bit, not only having been in in the in the teaching world for thelast twenty years, but also been a pastor for the last twenty years, whileI've been teaching, but I think I thinthink, I think one of the thingsthat I tell my students who oftentimes will come to me and ask me you know:Hey Hey doctor GAM, I know I'm getting at Im doand I I should be a pastor, butreally the the sweet. Gig Is being a professor. I want to do what you do asif there's like this chain of being right being a professor is high, ismore spiritually higher than being a professorant. I don't know how manytimes I have to remind them. I said I think your one misunderstanding arecalling Youare Undersendin just miss arsting,calling to me what you have to do. What you're called to do and gifted to do,God gives gifts to the Church and he helps them do their calling, and so, ifyou're called to be a professor you'll, have certain gifts ind the ability todo that. You may be called to be a pastor and you have to be faithful anddo that as well, and so I think one of the things that IV tried to do isexplain to them. The importance of finding and discerning they are callingand and from most most guides in the seminary Hu calling to the professor isvery, namely how Shal he say this, there's not many guys t at the seminarythat ithare call to be a professor. It takes a unique mind and heart and will,in my opinion, to be an academic and to go into that world and so part of thatjust discerning and learning and stirring the gifts and trying the gifts,but that would be my initial kind of statement to them. I just make sure youunderstand your calling and to obey that calling I have more to say, butlet me turn it over to the other brothers here and see what they thinkso Colan. How have you thought through? I remember having these veryconversations with you and I think there was a time where you really feltlike. I want to be a local church passer ifI'm not doing that, you know wh being the editor for theGospel coalition is something down the totem pole and some of us even said. Weappreciate that instinct and yet there's something very unique in whatyou can do in this role. So I'm answering the question for you like abad host. How did you think through...

...what to do with this pastoral urge yeah?Well, I would agree with what Justin had said, which is that I began tounderstand more clearly the calling as one toward eldership more broadly, andI felt like that was that was a calling, and that was gifting that others hadrecognized in me, but it wasn't necessarily the same thing as workingas a full time pastor and then from there I had to be able to differentatebetween the internal cal, which was the desire to be in that role and then theexternal call that was sort of stage too the extrean called being an actualchurch that wants to pay you money to do this thing and then a a third layerright now, which is talking with a with with an experience, pastor out ofAustralia. I was sharing my anks of I mean ever since I joined tg C. I hadactually turned down Don Carson several times, and I said I just I want to be apastor. Could you just let me do that and finally, he sort of said: okay goahead and you know just stay in touch whatever welwhen. I talked with thisfriend from Australia. He said you know what you're, probably only decent at yourjob at TGC, because you'd rather be a pastor, because it puts you in themindset of the pastors and it puts you in the mindset to the local churchleaders that'. So you think of yourself as and and I'd say, especially underJulius's leadership as TGC CEKS to serve the local church. That's verymuch. Our identity is the ientiy of the resources that we produce to comealongside to be the best friend of Churchleaders, to help to equip and totrain and to encourage them in all of their many giftings. And so I I don't know if the Lord ever doeshave that in my future. Um E I've learned long since to leave that up tohim and- and I think I've been affirmed than what I've been doing for the lastdecade. So that's you know. I I've just found the secret of contentment in thatcircumstance and continue to fan inflame the desire to be a pastor andjust in the fact is in in the local church that I'm involved with with ourshepherding structure. There's about a hundred and fifty people that fallunder my responsibility as a shepherd, and so if I ever feel like I'm lackingin patoral opportunities, or I mean the need, is right there in front of me.Nobody stopping me from serving these people as a pastor as an elder thatI've been called to be in any way that I can, and so the only thing that stopsme from doing it is my own willingness to serve in that capacity. So it's beena long process and you're ICAN d. We we walk through a lot of that with Justintolking through that a lot of that anx, but the Lord has been kind just in anything to add. Just in incase you don't know you, no one listening, coan see our S, squadcastglamor shots and how they put in. If you don't put in your own name, theyput a name for you and Justin is communicative. You know such is ironicbecause Um, his communications, often flicker and I'm kind sits nd, my kind,oh sin. Okay, I was thinking myself as a rather kind syt, I'm more of a breakout. CR Than Aquino,usually too yeah, that's true Justin. Do you have anything to to cirtle backto Addin your own thoughts here? No, I would just encourage people to keepasking the question Bobby Jamieson's, actually doing a a book for crossway onh how to aspire to be an elder, how to aspire to be a pastor and sometimest'sreally helpful to work through a book like that is to take somebody who'sgone through the pahhead of you. I helps you to ask the right questions. Ido think h. We all hear our products of Evangeligasm and also critics of it,and this is a broad generalization, but we tend to be individualistic as wethink about our our calling- and you...

...know just praying by myself and feelingsomething welling up inside of me, and I think we can learn from our ourpuritan forfathers on this issue and a e biblical example that this is acommunity decision and if, if nobody's encouraging you to do it, if you feelthis calling that's probably not the right thing, but you want to have wisecounsellors around you m friends who can speak honestly intoyour life and a situation. So it was a privilege to be a part of thoseconversations with Colin as we talk through. What are your strengths? Whatare your weaknesses? What are your desires? What a people see is a primarygifting and then just to know that the Lord Does Guide and he does guard usfrom mistakes, and he will put us in the right position to fulfil thataspiration, that we might have that's really good and it I'm sure you'd allagree. It' isn't like this is something you do when you're twenty seven and younever have to think through it again. So this is something that you continueto wrestle with throughout your days. I think I can share the story. A fewyears ago, T forg gathering Don Piper in his seventies at the time wasreflecting asking us. Do you think I'm a preacher who writes her a writer whopreaches still wrestling with his own sense of calling and vocation and wh?What? What do you think we told him I'd say a writer who preaches whodoesn't let going to church meetings? We also he as preacher a Freacher whowho ry interesting? What would you think what you said? You live yeah.That's interesting too, I would say he's a preacher who writes andinterestingly, a lot of people who have asked me my people, I meet my BarbarReememberi. The first time I went to a new barba shop, an they asked me what Ido and I was was kind of Tolin. Should I tell him I'm a professor at aseminary, Yea Hash, ser at a church. What do I say- and I actually just said, I'm a pastorwho teaches on a seminary: that's a sensiby yeah. You know,because I take my ministerial call so seriously when I took my vows beforeGod and the Church as a minister of the ward en sacrament, but whose primary duty as a minister ofthe word, was to teach and train future pastors. I said that's what I am I'mjust a pasture, I'm a minister who has spent some specializations and, as aresult, Ho has some gifting and teaching and training and mentoring,future leaders, but essentially at the core. I'm just I'm just a pastor, I'm ashepherd of God's flock, and in this way I think it's important. For me.It's important to remind myself of that, even as the President C C is HatEssentay, I'm a pastor, I' Ha Pastor, called by by by my church, to pasternnout, only my local church, but the broader church through this paratchministry CUALETGC, who essentially exists to support the local church, andso everything is about the church to me and so for me. I tell a lot of my youngstudents, men wh t the calling to be a pastor, and a shepherd, arguably, is the highest calling onecould ever receive. Christ died for the church, he didn't died for the seminaryhe didn't die for a parachurce organization. He died for his people,the Church and so to be a s to be an under shepherd of the chiep shepherd ofthe sheep. What can be greater than to be a part of that undeniably MarvelousMinistry of walking in the footsteps of Jesus, and so I just I keep telling mystudents we need more pastors. We need more pastures, there's enoughprofessors, we need more pastors, and so that has always been my cry at theSemitary for the last twenty years. So sticking on that them. I'd love tohear your take because you taught preaching I'd love to hear you can take this inthee or four different directions. Some of your favorite books on preachingtells Otng about your book. I'm preaching, maybe start with K w. what's what's your assessment ofpreaching or to narrow it a bit? If...

...there's somebody listening to thiswho's been preaching five, ten, maybe twenty five years do think it better. What one youristimation is is maybe t thing or a thing that if you could wave your magicpreaching ones, you would you wish preachers, could understand or a skillgive us your homileticians wizardry here Julius. How do we need to improvehis preachers? Yeah? That's a that's! A tough one because they're just it's notunlike mastering other skills right the there are. I was watching the PGAchampionship this weekend and- and I continue to marvel at how skilled theseguys are with a metawstick and a round ball and how they b almost at willdecide where that ball's going to go tbut Itoo, as you know, to be ae to beat that level and Youre talking hours upon hours. You know t what is Matan,gladwill sell, say ten thousand hours, at least to master something, and soone of the things I fel I tell t young creaceres as well as old, is b patient, because this is something that you canimprove on for the rest of your life and I'm a golfer and that's one of thethings I love about playing golf. Is that it's a game that I can play forthe rest of my life and continue to improve ut at the same time as you improve,there are certain things that you can do like go to the driving range andmake sure your grips are whether it's working on the fundamentals of the gameor getting coaches to help. You Find Tunyor game who see things that youcannot see in your swing. So, similarly, what I would say is ifyou're a young treacher make sure you got the fundamentals right is your gripright is your stands. Right. are Y re, balancing yourself over your feet.Similarly, in preaching, there are certain things that I believe arefoundational to preaching like the interpretive, as well as theorganizational and the deliberate communicative aspects of preaching andthat's kind of how. If I can do the shameless Blod and that's kind of howI've designed my my book. My book is for, or you know, young preachers whoare learning, how to preach better and what? What does it mean to interpretthe Scriptures, doing justice to both the human author, but also to divineauthor and Finding Gospel, centrality and interpretation while doing justiceto the text, but also then organizing in such a way that s logical and lineand helpful por people for maximum attention and retention and thendelivering it in such a way with passion and and understanding how thebrain works so that people ave to remember what you say, and so these aresome fundamental things that you need to know to begin or if you haven't everlearned, it actually learn to become a better preacher and then for those whohave been doing it for a while is find a coach. And there are differentcoaches that are available to you. My best coat trankly is my wife. My wifeknows me well, and so she, for my thirty years of preaching, has beenextremely instrumental, probably more so in my earlier years in helping me now, I have to admit thatthat that created some awkward conversations around dinner. At timesmy wife is gifted with the gift of glutness and so left, has't, good andso she's always been great, but you know we worked out a system where youknow usually waited not s. We didn't talk about it Sunday on the way homefrom Church, but I'm very vulnerable and sensitive. We always waited untilTuesday or Wednesday dinner for her to say. Hey did you think about this?Could you think about this? When I heard it, this is what I heard or whenyou did this, it seemed to be distracting or whatever and so likeha.So my wife has always been a good coach and you know also's. A good coach isactually video is actually videotaping yourself mm and you see things in yourcommunicative style and in your messaging. What I call nonverbalmessaging, that a lot of young creacheres, even old bridches, don'teven realize that they do and- and I think, a lot of church members arewilling to overlook a lot of distracting qualities about yourdelivery because they love you as a person which is great. But if we want amaster or craft which is to be great communicators and shepherds with ourvoice and with our body language, then... know watching a video could behelpful and then Lasti one last thing. It is finding other mentors, like otherpreachers, gifted preachers who can ten help you, and so that's something thatI'm actually thinking about right now is, as I transition over a TGC, and Ihave this gift of teaching preaching and this still. How can I use that Gitthat td c the coach future preachers, and so that's something I'mthiningabout, I wan. I don't want to replace the seminary. The seminarybrings all of that together and and of a crucable experience of three or fouryears, but if there's something that I can do to kind of coach and mentorpreachers right now with the skills that I have, maybe that's somethingthat I can that can maybe establish at TGC. So those are some thoughts,carabout ai, for any of you guys who are some of the T, the preachers? Maybe it s sermonsthat you go back to read, but maybe it's people that you're listening tonow, who who are some of the guys who really encourage you? You have h an hour in the car and you want tolisten to a sermon. Who might you find on your phone one of the things that I I've foundKevin is? U No thank you. I can appreciate we just how personal it is. So I rememberthinking about the Gosipel coalition that one of the main things werecommitted to as expository preaching no coincidence. That Julius is ourpresident and then I remember thinking are we talking about the expositorypreaching of Tim Keller. We talk about the expository preaching of Dohn Carson,we're talking about the expository preaching of John Piper 'cause Yeulistene to those three eys yeah, pretty different, very different and so I'lljust say personally Um, as with a lot O lot of my things in life Um, it's some combination of market deverand Tim Keller Um. Now it is one thing I mean I W, I probably more when whenI'm preaching, I preach more like marks, I think I just learn more from him. Tim is is different, fror me, but hechallenges me in ways that are just you know, ver very fascinating and justlearn a lot from him. There M, but I go back generally to to h advise that Carson gave me backwhen I was in seminary, which was one of my biggest blessings was beingpastered by Kent Huges at College Tuesing listening to Kent, and he saidone of the beautiful things about Cantas that you can actually learn howto preach from Kent. You know his his process. Is there he's very structured,he's very clear he's inccredibly gifted, but you can actually. You can learnfrom him, oh my goodness, Julius and Kevin. You guys must have stories ofthe people. You can just tell immediately Li e. It cant translatesacross a lot of cultures, not every culture, ee, going to translate Aoun Ts,a lot of cultures, but Piper or Celor, especially that's I mean you, can youcan spot that kind of person from a mile away and so in developing mypreaching, but also just benefiting from it? One of the thing I'll pointout, though, is that I remember with with my the pastor of my church. Istarted to notice that his sermons were really just more engaging lately and II just I liked what I was seeing so I kindof like with kids. I try to catchmy pastors doing good, not doing bad. Nobody likes that kind of person inyour church, So San I've just been so impressed and so edified by ourpreaching lately, and he said. Thank you for a number of weeks, I've onlybeen listening to blouet creatures, and I could tell I mean it was reallygood. I mean S, that's not his style and he didn't sound like that, but hisimagery was so much more vivid. There was a dynamism n. Theillustrations were were so much more helpful in some ways and like whthat.So so I could listen to Tim and I could listen to mark all the time, but I alsowant to push myself to listen to some really different folks who I'm notgoing to be their style, but I'm Gong... learn from them Julius. I want tohear from you who, who do you listen to? I think one of thes things that I'vebeen careful about, especially when I was preaching more regularly, wasactually not listening to anybody at all, because I found that even in my eprocess of crafting my sermon, I was too tempted to steal a phrase or a lineor idea or even a move right. Moving from, let's a interpretationapplication. I- and I really wanted to force myself to learn the craft ofcreat, finding my own voice right and I think that's it's a hardcraft at a hardprocess to trust that overtime. Your Voice will become greater and better,and that's one of the first things I did was just not not listen to many,but I actually love my local pastor. His name is Tad Hamilton of my Pc Hch,where I serve as an associate bastor Ted really from me is right along theTim Keller Line, he's a former attorney he's a corporate attorney who, aftersixteen years, went to seminary, and so clearly he has the kind of JohnCalvinask ability to think through a lot of the content, but then organizitin a way, that's very clear and compelling and persuasive, but he'salso he's a careful cultural apologist as well for those lat E in southernCalifornia. So what what Ted does extremely well is? He takes the sametype of moves that Tim would make, but tim does it for people living inManhattan, ten dozen for people living inside San, Diego California, wrestlingwith their questions and concerns, and so having now listened to him for nownineteen years I can honestly say he's actually getting better every year. Sohe just did a series, through coved, on on the fruit of the spirit and applyingthe fruit of the spirit to how we're treating one another during this coventexperience, and it was phenomenal, Excellent Gospel, censered, doingjustice to Pauline theology, but at the same time applying it to the currentquestions, concerns complaints that people are having in light of this coeexperience, and so I really enjoy Ted's ballance there, and so I love listeningto him. Thank Fula Ha to listen to hem every Sunday, yeah! That's really great!I just love the reminder of Julius for any anyany preacher out there oranybody who's just listning to it is really hard thing to do. I tell my students that it's it's theclosest thing to x, N, hello, that that I encounter because you read thecommentaries you study, you got lots of ideas and there'. There's a blank page,there's a blank screen each week: Okay, W! Where d? What direction do I takethis? How do I come up with this and I've just been, I think, convictedandcouraged in the last year, or so just what you sidulate. I I WANTNA Iwant to keep getting better at this, I mean before the Lord, and it's notgoing to be. Finally, my ingenuity, but I want to get better at this. I listento other podcasts. You know people doing what we do just talking and I realize there are a lotof really smart people out there who write great stuff in other fields andit's hard to to talk. Well, you think about politicians who have an army ofpeople who are speechwriters and they can give the same speech in differentplaces and a pastor. It's got to do it. You know very few. Have anyone helpingthem with research y? You got lots of books, but you have to do that everysingle week and you got to come up with something I mean the Ted talks thatlight the world on fire and go viral. You know that's twenty minutes thatsomebody had the opportunity to craft, probably over year's give it one timememorize it great, really really impressive. Now do that every week forthe rest of your life, it's very difficult for sure, and if you're goodat it, it will look easy to be yeah. They'll. Think anybody could do that.Of course, when it looks when it's bad,...'s really bad ha just so painful to see but yeah itlooks effortless when it's good. So this is life and books andeverything we're going ta end now with books, Julius few categories, so just give itlightning style. What are some of the most influential Christian books over the years? Give us three four five,whatever comes to mind for you as a Christian leader, pastor the mostinfluentials on Julius Kim Yeah, a great question. I'd say as a collegestudent or the most influencial things, an helping me direct me toward reformdtheology, on the the emphasis on the sovereignt iave got in the doctors ofgrace, O j packers, knowing God yo o I interested in cultural apologetics wasUm. How, then, shall we live? Grante e shaper, that's at my college years andthen when I got to seminary. Probably the most seminal book for me wasactually an know strangee. This made sound strange, but it was actuallydevotional. When I read it too was was Calvin's institutes. I was shocked whenI finally read Calvin and how devotional his theology is. That isthis marriage of the head and the heart Tan. A lot of people misunderstandabout Calvin and Calvin's Mato was my heart. I give to be right, not Mymy,brain in my mind and so calven and then in terms of my theological precisionwhen I was in Semr, was Turritan. I really appreciated Tuons liketetheology, so Calvin Turritin and then in terms of pastoral theology, as Iwent through seminary moving into pastoral ministry, and things like that again, this may sound strange, but inaddition to Keller I was reading is listening to Keller. At the time whowas I reading, I was influence a lot B in my preaching by andclowding, an constuff, as Tim was yeah, we're both disciples of AD. Who else was I reading at the time Jack Miller, Jack Miller was actuallyquite influential, andhis heart for me, Hartfor People Jack Really told me what it means tohave his book Hart of a Servain leader right and so, while I might not agreeon everything Jack, I just I really when I read his letters in that Bok artof a certain leader. He really profoundly helped me understand what itmeans to truly love your people as a shepherd and M honry Nowin. I thinkagain he's a Catholic misted it, but now and really helped me connect the head to the heart. More soand again, I don't agree with him on everything, but man, here's a guy whotries daily to walk with God and Yo. Can you can H his his words? Just bleeda person who walks of God right and and that's what I really want for myselfand so nowons bininla Eugene Peterson. Somebody who's also been very an impactfor for me again in his the balance of his theology and life asa pastor and as a Christian Peterson's always been very influencialto me. So those are just some rapid fire names that just come to mind thathave influenced me over the years, any favorite non Christian books, whetherfiction or nonfiction yeah. I love historical novels. I love historicalfiction and nonfinction. That's just my love of history, so anything historicalfiction. I Love I'm at you trudging my way through Hamilton. I don't even nowannounced his last name but Churno Chernal. So Am I. Where are you on thisJulius? I met IM o too I gave up and I gave up the Gutin ball an I did, I'm upOASOSO. I Ron why I should not bothers what you guys are telling me I'm. I need people IAM, the Mo loburnreader alive. You Don turn out for memin he's alittle over the top in his writing style. So there's more of a stilisticthing for me he's a little over the top, and it's almost like he wants toimpress me with his...

...his knowledge of even is, is that is hewriting with up Thi Sorus next to him. It's it'seevery paragraph there's aword that I don't know and I EST CA a fairly Al Red Guy. Wa We've talkedabout this on this bodcast before Ti hetor a good friend who just says, lookif you're back, if he's longer than wo hundred firty pages, I don't understandwhat you're doing e. So it's not not just a Thasoris, but also just thisyear length, and so I mean I felt like Oh man, Cova I've been playing pianoagain, I'm going to pick up Hamilton. No, I woul know, I don't think you etenpersonally yeah, I don't think ned to ead the whole thing. That's I bo Julius,so Iyeah shouldwast e time o that rea might a well call him. evalready readher Boki Oy, you Neete, say what it is. Tell us what your book is: Yeah. It'scalled preaching the whole Council of God, tit's put out by xaderven sorry,justen and Um it's to design and Deliver Gospel, centered sermons, andso it's really a it's essentially B made for essentially designed to helpfirst year second year of preaching students at the seminary. But reallyanybody can pick it up because in and I try to help anybody who has to teachthe Bible frankly teach anything learn some foundational things of Hahow toput together a structured and organized th idea and then delivered in a way formaximum attention retention and then, hopefully, by the holy spirits powertransformation. So what am I reading now? I'm readingactually TWAN two main areas: Kevin and I'll. Show you what I'm doing at TJCPresident I'm reading books on race. I think I need to am more well worse thanthat, so I'm actually working my way through Abram Kennedy's book stamp. Onthe beginning, I've already worked through some other books, and so that'sthat seems to be a semina work that a lot of people refer to. So I'm workingmy way through Bron Kendy's book, but on the other hand, you you introduced abook by smethon on Institutional Intelligence Yeah, so I'm workingthrough that as well. So those are my two big areas of reading. Right now ison race and justice issues, but also an institutional management on leadership,and so that's what I'm reading now. All right last question: Just so: Youknow real life from getting tax. My son, I dropp them off fishing somewhere. Canyou come asap, it is pouring out and I can testify it is pouring out. So thisis how much I love you the listener. My children are getting poring wet, but isit true, Julius to Qut the Moody Blues that Youare just a singer in a rock androll band? How did you hear? How did you know yeahwell, tell us you're. Ah You you are really musical, like notjust uh yeah it. You know. I taught myself GCD on the guitar in College,but you you actually play, give us a little bit brag on yourself. Okay, whatwould your wifesay to Brag on you about your musical Abiliti? Clearly, youdon't know g very well. She would o he wouldt Brag it out. He would be theopposite as a good Korean wife. She would put me down. She would think thatputting me down she's actually elevating me. Okay, that's a Corean waybut m. let's try the American way since I'm a Crean and an American Y. Ah, dowe we boasted our glories ir, so this this seems appropriate her myeah. So ever since I was a young man, I I loved the Guitar, I love music, andso I thought I was actually going to be a music major in college. I dabbled init for a little bit. I was a briblopal studies, Major and then a music miner,so I played guitar. I I play piano, I did voice and then I decided there's nofuture in this at all and so wisely. I chose the pastoral ministry, which ofcourse, is much more lucrative, fiscally and so more than hit on TikTak. So over the years in a church ministry I served by using the gifts ofmusic ssay. I used to be, you know: Lead music through guitar, piaboys Ti,don't know twenty thirty years m and...

...then more recently, providentially. No,when I was in High School College, you do, though, requisite hig school garageband college garage ban and trying to do that for a little bit, primarilyplaying covers a try to Dabe a little bit in in original music, but primarilyjust covers, and then more recently it group on you tube, no, an no. What WWANAT WEL ETERAIDIOS did not exist at the time. What was the name of the band?I'm not going to tell you I'm not going to Wa Tel. You tell me who you reallywant to see me in Amulle Ith, the rings. Okay, I Edon Y. Imagine me with he molGreeme tell us at least what covers you were doing, what kind of vans yeah soback. Then we were doing primar. Well, there was a Christian rock music stage,so I don't know if you remember that in the eighties yeah when I was like, I didn't do Petra, which was likethe heavy Miter Chistian. So in in southern California, there was a groupof musicians that we all loved Iwas, like undercover four for one and allthese smaller Christian bands, and so we were trying to emulate them so back,then we were trying to be the next Yu too, or the next alarm alarm wasanother Christian band out of it, yeah out of Ireland that so that was kind ofmy thing at the time and then later fast forward wo. This is BIE. Ten yearsago a good friend of mine ruling outder atmy church, got diagnosed with with blood cancer, with multiple myloma andh fifty some years al the time and was really depressed, driving home from thedoctor and happened to pass by a music store and he went in and bought. The Guitarhe's always wanted his whole life, which a Gibson es three thirty five buthe in Chuckberry, plays ery read. He has three thirty five, THAT'S NOT EXPEN!That's not cheap, bought that guitar an an bought, an ant brought it home. Wifesays what are you doing said: Honey I've been diagnosed with cancer, Imight die within a year. I'm going to start a band, no joke calls me saidJulius. I I remember you used to play in a band when you were young. Do youwant to get together and jam said sure, no idea that he was diagnosed againsther pelicis Jam Right? Let me call a buddyof mighty, plays the BAS and me call nother budy mighty place the guitars,so we meet ut in church. I play guitar, so the four of us they said well, weshould actually have some ideas all right. Let's, let's play roar Orbisin,pretty woman. Let's play yea the eagles, you know. So, let's play the Beatlesitwas kind of like a standard, fifty sixty seventies, music, that everybodyloves dancing and singing Alonto Yeah. So he chose those music got. The cortsheets listened to it played it and we played about four songs in this hourand then he told us. Why were way it was guys. I had cancer,then, is we're trying to fight back tears, we're like wll. What do we wantto do with this? He goes, let's start a wedding bag, and so that started awedding ben called the decades. We called the decades that's goodthefabulous decades, and and so we played several weddings, we playedfourth of July. We played a large event twice two years in a row for the cityof Redlyns. I know it doesn't sound like much, but for the city of relins,they hade, like this big firework, show that the city puts on and it was at ReaUniversity of relins stadium and we played in front of like twelve thousandpeople and so had an opportunity to blame little gins like that, and youknow for me, wasn't about the money. It was h just being with my buddy, who wasdying it cancer and he he actually passed away four years ago, Andso theband stopped. So we haven't, I haven't, played in a band since feels kind, Oweird, actually to play again. It was a special moment. There was a specialtime period of about two three years where we played with him. He was a ledsinger. I played I played guitar and base depending on the song, and so thatwas kind of my little short wedding band, career, at's, great bitter sweet,but a great story. I hadn't heard that before Julius will have to have you Bak.We didn't get to hear enough about your your lovely blunt Korean wife and eyou're too. Equally lovely, I'm sure...

...daughters, but thank you for being withus. Thank you for for your years of Training Ministry students atWestminster, continuing to do that in a different capacity. Thank you for coming on board to serve TC, aspresident were thrilled that you're in this roll graqful to have you at thehelm and O. Have you as our friend as well to think you, brother Forbenio?Thank you for having me what a pleasure look for to be with you all next time.

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