Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode 13 · 1 year ago

Whom Am I Risking For?


Season 2 of Life and Books and Everything is here! Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor, and Collin Hansen sit down together to discuss their summer reading lists, how to balance the need for safety and the need to trust God's sovereignty in the pandemic, Grace Community Church and their choice to gather indoors for services in California, and should the Big 10 have canceled?

This episode is brought to you by Crossway. As Kevin says on this episode, "There are lots of Christian publishers, but with Crossway, you know that you have men and women working there who care very much about the content about the truth of God's word, not just selling books—every book publisher has to sell some books but—more importantly, they want to edify and build up the church."

In particular, we want to highlight the book by Dane Ortlund, 'Gentle and Lowly: The Heart of Christ for Sinners and Sufferers.' Some say that, "this book is like J. I. Packer's Knowing God," others say, "this is the best book I've read in a decade." There is lots of high praise for Gentle and Lowly, by Dane Ortlund, so please check it out.


Introduction + Book Giveaway Announcement with Crossway [0:00 - 4:50]

Summer Reading [4:50 - 29:47]

Collin's summer reading:
The Future of Christian Marriage by Mark Regnerus

Spying on the South: An Odyssey Across the American Divide by Tony Horwitz

The Minutemen and Their World by Robert A. Gross 

Lead: 12 Gospel Principles for Leadership in the Church by Paull David Tripp

Justin's summer reading:

Confederates in the Attic: Dispatches from the Unfinished Civil War by Tony Horwitz

Redeeming the Great Emancipator by Allen C. Guelzo 

Reconstruction: A Very Short Introduction by Allen C. Guelzo

Midnight Rising: John Brown and the Raid That Sparked the Civil War by Tony Horwitz 

The Panic Virus: The True Story Behind the Vaccine-Autism Controversy by Seth Mnookin 

Kevin's summer reading:

Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How It Changed the World by Laura Spinney

The Content of Our Character: A New Vision of Race In America by Shelby Steele

Manliness Paperback by Harvey C. Mansfield

Great Society: A New History by Amity Shlaes

How can we understand the balance between the pursuit of safety and absolute confidence in God’s sovereignty? [29:47 - 45:38]

Grace Community Church and their choice to gather indoors for services in California and the challenges facing churches in the pandemic [45:38 - 59:50]

Should the Big 10 have canceled? [59:50 - 1:11:40]

Readings and salutations welcome backto life and books and everything hope you had a great summer. I joined asalways with Alin Hansen and our patient resonator. As his name says, on myscreen, Justin Taylor. We have some fun things in store for you with thisseason too, as we're calling it. We have several interviews lined up overthe next few months and we're taking things up and och. We have a producer,so he is going to produce things and help us arcalub. We are going to lookgood, as we said before. We got three faces for podcast radio right here, buthe's going, Ta least make u sound good and making this all possible. We have asponsor for a today's program, which we are very grateful for none other thancrossway. All of us have worked with Crossway, some of US work for crossway.We are very grateful to have their support. We love their books, we loveworking with them and we love benefiting from the resources that theyput out. There are lots of Christian publishers, but with crossway. You knowthat you have men and women working therewho care very much about the content about the truth of God's word, aboutnot just selling books, every book poster Hav to sell some books but, moreimportantly, they want to edify and build up the church, and so I lovecrossway and I'm glad to have them for our sponsor today's program. Inparticular, we want to highlight the book by Dane Ortland Gentle in lowly,and when I look at a new book, I do look at the blurbs not so much to seewho blurbed it, though that can matter, but the sort of the level of excitement is this astandard just mail it in hey warmly recommended or does this seem like auniquely excellent book and with the BLURBS for Dane's book and the reviewsthat it's been getting people are saying really amazing things. This is likejpackers, knowing God. This is the best book I've read in a decade, so lots ofvery high praise, Dane Orlans book gentle and lowly check it out and forour loyal lbe listeners, that's life and books and everything we have abundle of three books to give away. So, in addition to Dame's book, we haveanother Ortland, Gavin Ortland, finding the right hills to die on and then notin Ortland, but also a fine person in her own right, Nancy, gutthree, saintsand scoundrels in the story of Jesus. So you get those three books. How canyou get an opportunity to win these three books? You need to subscribe tolife and books and everything on Apple pod cast or whatever poticas streamingservice. You use leave, of course, a five star review. If they have morestars leave all the stars, you can and T en contact us lbe as in life andbooks and everything lb e producer at gmal dotcom and we're going to takeyour work for it. When you say that you subscribe and you gave a cintillatingfive star review and then you'll be entered in and if you win, we will letyou know and mail out those three books. Thank you, crossway comline, your find yourself, a sponsorthat you don't have to you know, Cross your fingers about linre talking aboutone that you can genuinely genuinely appreciate, and so thank youcrossway and thank you for our lesseners. We really appreciate you andte P wit e blieving crossing fingers either. No thank you for that. Not eventhe poverty of God, I'm not only an adman, I'm also aclient. So we are very grateful for crossway. So welcome. Back from yoursummer, we're going to jump right in. We often save the books for the end. Here's whatwe're Goin to do we're going to talk about some books, we're going to talkabout safety and sovereignty and then we're going to tie that into Idon't know some things happening around the world like the H cisification ofbig ten football e, John mccarther versus La County, perhaps maybe evensay something about the upcoming presidental election. Just to keep youlistening to the end Collin, you read thirteen thousandbooks this summer. How did you read so many books? You had all day off to readbooks tell us a little bit about that...

...and then I'm Goingna make you just pick,maybe three that you found particularly interesting orworthwhile. You know as a podcast for readerslovers of books, people will often want to know from us. Just how do you readbooks and one of the ways you do is simply youneed time. There is simply no substitute for Um fere just having timeto read books and part of that comes in finding every little nook and cranny tobe able to read in and knocking out ten pages here, ten pages there. Sometimesit looks like being able to concentrate for the better part of a month onreadingbooks, so that was one of the things I was blessed to do through myjob Wath, the Gosspel coalition, in addition to hanging out with you, findfellows, I also host Mount Pod Cast Gospel bound, which is an author ofpodcast in large part. So I have to read up on that. Bodcast so was able toread a number of books, exciting books coming out this full, especially solemitus focus on three of them. The first one cross promotion is with MarkRigneris. The future of Christian marriage actually have an interview outwith him. Now on Gospel bound, some of you may now Camin and Justin O.You guys are familiar with marks work yea over the years. Ey H, you could saycontroversial sociologist, but what makes him controversial is probablywhat would make him pretty well mainstream on this bodcast, meaningthat he's willing to follow sociology when it lead when it guides into God'struth about family and sex, and things like that. Instead of Um, you knowsharing what is the current um sort of politically correct conclusions so thatI'm recommending that book for All Christian leaders, because theinstitution of marriage and the trends related to marriage have profoundimplications for church leaders and simply for all of our lives, and so umhappy to talk about that one further, if you guys have any interest, butotherwise, let me ask Acgo Ahead: I somtimes get him confused, notnohactually confused but in my mind, they're talking about some of the sameideas with Bradley Wilcock, wl they're, good friends, both Catholic Natol fomyou', committed Medi Catholic sociologists that major publicuniversities yeah so Brad's stuff. I just heard interview with him is Talkinabout why marriage matters and he talks about how ow marriage is not only apersonal good and all of the the ways in which, if you're married, it's aleading indicator for making more money for being happier. So it's not ast goodfor you, it's a social good. It's a societal, good and he's really good attalking about how marriage shapes, in particular shapes males.Some of it may be selection by as the males who are ready to get married orsormature. So I have that in my mind, I'm really excited to read Mark's book.I haven't ordered ready to come to me when it comes out Um. Is it the samesort of stuff? Is he taken a different angle? Is he looking just in particulara Christian trends and surveys yeah, it's it's the future of Christianmarriage, so he's only talking to Christians, he's talking to them inseven different countries and his? U. His major argument is that marriage isno longer a something durable good that you enter into for improvement in life,but it is rather the capstone at the end of your sort of like earlyadulthood, so throe your twenties, and so he wants to explore how we reachedthat point and then also what are the implications of that he's, not verypositive toward that trend. Orer. Some reasons that he lays out, but his mainobservation is that Christians take for granted that that's the way marriageshould be, which is a dramatic change in in a matter of about two generationsthere. So the capstone view of marriage he describes, and it reminds us that wetend to focus on what we can see what the news tells us. Those are the mostimportant things. Where often is the things that seem invisible to us, thetare moving under underneath slowly, but massively I mean every church will beaffected and has been already by these changes in marriage by delayed marriageby fewer children in marriage. By this different view of what marriage is, sowe tend to focus on the big flashy stories. They get the headlines and theprotests, and we understand we need to do some of that, but these issues arereally the strong currents underneath and Christian views largely don'tdiffer from the broader cultures views there and also, interestingly, fromcountry to com country from Russia to Lebanon, to the United States mark does not find dramaticallydifferent views. Western norms prevail...

...and not just western norms but westernnorms from the last couple of generations. So that's the book that Iremembered the most from summer then, like I said you can go check out,innterview that I did with Mark on Um on Gospel, bound couple of others. Ithink just in I think you're listening to Tony horwittzs, 's famousconfederates in the attic book correct, so I just Um. I just decided to pick up.I I sited a bookstore in Franklin Tennessee this summer and then I, thepublisher, was kind enough to send it to me and I have to admit I had forgotten that Tony had died. SoI was thinking I'll get this book and I'd love to talk with him. But ofcourse, Tony Tragically I passed too too early, I think last year. So thisbook, spying on the South is Um, is his last book and the oldpremise of the book very similar to the formula just and you're the one who,with Crossway, signed my first book youngrest, was rerformed to brought meon board and you'll. Remember that that book conveer in the Attic is reallywhat gave me inspiration through the help of o friend tetls in a Christiantoday, to write that book. So ony Justcas eformed, the whole movement wasinspired. Butby, the confederacy by confederates and the attic THATAcorrect let'sjust make sure it take that out of context. So peopleunderstand I mean just once. You describe just kind o like what thepremise is of what he does with his writing yeah. He basically opens thebook describing his own experience as a kid growing up in the south and beingfascinated with the civil war and reenacting, and then he moves on as hebecomes an adult as most of us doing, putting away our childish obsessions,but then decides to basically embed himself like with confederatereenactors and people who believe in the lost cause and those whodon't care as much about it, but just glory and trying to go back in a tiemachine as it were so he's camping out in the woods and he's learning about awhole southern culture and subculture that he didn't quite know existed n. Soit's a it's a really fascinating, first person book that opens up historicalthings and also kind of contemporary social history yeah. I I don't. I don't think oactually grew up in the south. I think he grew up in the north, but he alwayshad a fascination with the civil war which led him to want to learn about it.So I think the way he he seems to do really well as a journalist. Where he'snot writing he's sympathetic to people, he really describes himself as a peopleperson, but he but he's not necessarily sympathetic to any of the ideas sospoking on the South I's an interesting book. I don't think it's kind ofpahbreaking the way confederates and the attic is he's tracing, Frederic, aw,holmstead designer of central park, his tours through the south before thecivil war and just takes Hoen a lot of different southern subcultures, and Ithink that's probably my big takeaway from the book is that if anybodyimagines the south to be one kind of place, it is a massive place with lotsof people and seemingly infinite subcultures, and it was a book where Iliving as a southerner thought. I don't recognize any of myself or any of myculture in this book, which is fair 'cause. He was following Olmstead'stravels. Almost they didn't come through Alabama, at least he didn'thave time to write about it, and so I didn't expect it, but I just thoughtwow. This stuff is as foreign to me as it would have been to him for themost part. So what was the DC? Okay? There you go D C, yeah, so ora I meanHatyeah technically that that is the south, historically speaking, um. So the third one, real quick that I Ithought to highlight, and I love to talk about these history books with youguys, would be Robert Grossas, the minutemen in their world H, Tommy Kidhad recommended that Um see Kavin did that that come up in your graduatestudies, your doctoral, settes it all okay, I didn't get that into the h revolutionary side of things.Okay, all right! So so I think what this h book is consideredgroundbreaking in is is social history. So it's a classic New England TownStudy of Concord Massachusetts and it tells you the story not merely of whathappened on those shots heard round the world that anaugrated the Americanrevolution, but also the religious dynatics. I think that was part of whatwas so interesting to me was how how the Old Light New LightRevival Dynamics had played out in this town and helped to shape its socialfuture heading into the revolution. So that was really interesting but uh. We just love history on this bodcast,but I liked that Um, especially as is not only just interesting in F itself,but as somebody who loves historiography, reading a landmark workin that kind of town studies and social history and they o and the the authorhas it. This is an anniversary adition, so he's got an end where he justdescribes kind of of how why he did...

...history that way- and there were someclear political motivations of why he did history that way, but those wereinteresting but um sneak in one more also from our Wa. When did that book?Come out the minutemen book, I'm trying to remember the anniversary edition Iread was like from two thousand or something like that. So I think it woashat an UNY fifth anniversary edition, so I'm guessing seventy five yeah hayeah and Um. I mean what you're talking about the historiography is important because it's gone in wavesand I don't think exactly. These are mutually exclusive, but you have sortof the history as big ideas right that bounced through history. You have rightaqral right, you have the the great man or great woman who, as created indefines a time you have the not really discredited, what's called wigishhistory, which is history perpetually evolving and telling history in a waythat looks backward in all the ways that it becomes are now enlightenedself. Now so you know I was taught Um really th, I don't know, there's aschool, but there is Quinton Skinner School of history and Um, saying from his and there's been a bookabout by this title, seeing things their way so to do intellectual history,trying to see things thereway and that's. That's coincided with a renewedinterest in appreciation among secular histories, even for the place ofreligion, certainly nol and Marston. You know helped with that n theAmerican scene, but trying to understand a person in history who theyare, and I really think this is important. It does have relevance forall the debates about statues and how we understand the American founding. As I said in one of my block pieces,you know we don't have to just look on. You know an unrealistic Sunnyside, butthere's a difference between warts and all and Wartz, and nothing else,approachd a history, and so I think, as a Christian part of loving our neighboras ourselves, including our dead neighbor, is to try to see things thereway try to inter in sympathetically, which doesn't mean at the end. We willhave sympathy with what everything they did or their positions, but I thinkit's really important role of Thi Story and then w you know what you justdescribed was in some ways a a reaction against that great ideas: Great man,view of history to definitely yea, let's, let's what about the the priceof fish at the market place and how that affected people said. So you knowI did. There was a little bit of that in in my training, but there wasdefinitely a sense of an there's, some people that you might m encounter oryou might an up with on your committee. You are going to want to see some ofthat, but that was mainly what I was trying to do. If you want to see areally good example of how I think those two schools merge, it would beMarsdon's biography of Edwards. So it's very much it's a sympatheticintellectual history seeing things from his perspective, but it's not in it'snot higeographical at all, in the sense that Edwards is definitely a figure whodeserves some measure of criticism and his views were CIS. thes were novel insome cases, or certainly innovative, which invites that kind of criticism,but part of what set that book. Apart from some other evanglical histories,including of Edwards, was precisely because it was located within thedynamics of the town of Northampton Massachusetts. RATER had tdimainly inthe dynamics of theological ideas, Marautin's reallygood at that, but he's butting it in a town and, like I said he yeah, he fusesthem together and that and that is appropriate in the case of Edwards,because he's pastering in the same Fah same town as his grandfather samechurch taking over for him, and he changes his grandfather's views andthen ultimately, he's ousted by that church. So it helps to explain howthose dynamics have come to play apart from merely wait. I thought JonathanEdwards O was only writing these brilliant treatises and things likethat. So I'll, kick it to you Justin for any books you want to talk about,but in a transition there. I wanted to mention the fourth one, which is Paul.TRIP's book lead coming out from crossway soon, and I think that's one.We should devote a future episode to at least a Segmet in the future. Talkingabout because H, I think I think we can get prettypersonal on that one with what we've experienced over the last decade, plusas friends, and also just what we've learned from the Lord during that time.So I don't want to spoil anymore of that, but, as I was going backpreparing to do an interview with Paul for Gosipel bound coming up, I I was.It was amazing how many lines I had underlined either because there weresomething the Lord had impressed upon me or something that I'd seentragically with a friend I mean some of our friends, so yeah good, a good monthof reading, and so just in less hear...

...from you yeah I I definitely want to beCalin Hanson when I grow up and have Thoseti not only to have that time off,but then also to have that discipline ameable to read that amount that canwrite or you can read, but you really can't do both unless you're Keven toyoung. So just when you're writing, it's not going to happen. Well for my books, I think I listen to three finishing confederates, an attic nowand then read a couple of short books and they're Goingta all sound similarin terms of themes, except for one outlier, but two books by Ellen GelzoWHO's. Now at Princeton and the first one was three lectures he gave itHarvard Redeeming: The Great Emancipator N, Abraham, Lincoln S,unwanting of Abraham, Lincoln, the antislavery world of Abraham, Lincolnand then Lincoln's God and emancipation. So I admire scholars who can do massivemonographs and stand in all of them, but I also have a new appreciation for scholars, perhaps kind of the thelatter quarter of their scholarship in life to be able to doshort books. I also picked up elengelzos very short, introduction inthe Oxford Series on reconstruction hundred and twenty eight pages, orsomething like that to try to get you know, twelve years plus with ongoingramifications. Intwo an hundred and twenty eight pages, I think, takes a aunique talent inability. So then, we've already talked aboutconpeterantes in the attic, and I also listen to Tony horrowoods is midnightrising. So I guess maybe twenty hords publicist is the the ADICI pocasq therisia, this silent, sponsor this as and then I listend to the panic virusby science journalist a MIT. I know how to say it's last NM, exactlySteve Moonkin on the myth between autism and vaxcinesand science and public health, and thinking that H, i just have a feeling.Vaccines might be in the discussion coming upin or colder. So I want to reading on thatand you can send all of your hate mail to Kevin Dot, be young at glike, like Isaid, that's what for L B E producer at gnodcom for all of your vacinelatedquestions and complaints? Please yeah, but it's a fascinating discussion, science and public trust and toPestomology, and how do you know what you know and competing voices and how to sortthrough things in the role of instinct versus the role of experts, and this is not unrelated to what's goingon with coved and thinking through all the different competing voices and thePartistan way in which things tend to shake out. So that seems like arelevant book. I want to do some more reading and thinking and learning on ofvaccines and science. That's Great Yeah! My my wife read that book and I I want. I want to have read it, butit's one of those books. It's like four hundred pages. Isn't it three hundredand fifty pages, or I kind O, wanted a SOM Ointo, give me like a fifteen pagelong, SSA version, but he he tells a lot of stories in there have either ofyou read. You know, there's the big book on the Nineteen Eighteen Virus,the name Escape Se Rit this moment, but then there's ran influen Yegat a greatinsuence P, but then there's the shorter one. That's more global byLaura spiny or spinny called Pale rider, I'm about halfway through that one.It's it really is uncanny. How many things sound familiar? Really even just ahundred years ago I mean it actually sounds similar. Well, it sounds a lotworse than Glasur with the death tolls and the carnage, but the h, the kind of protests over restrictions,the wearing of mask the closing of churches, the refusing to do it th thewates different towns would agree to or not agree to, the theprotocols and the ramifications there of and how it even the naming of it. You know it'scome to us as the Spanish flu, which is really you now a misnomer, but it was named.Several other things named based on other parts of the world, depending onwhere you were just so happened that you know at one point. We thought inAmerica that was a port of entury through Spain so became the Spanishinfluent so that that's a book Um I yeah. I read several books. I didmore writing, but I'll just mention three quickly:...

Shelby Steel, the content of ourcharacter, Justin Ou, you've read that one before maybe Collin has as well.I've read a lot of shewby steel and I've read his his later stuff. This ishis first book, or at least maybe his first book on on this topic. So it'sit's quite it's twenty five years old now and was at first written innineteen ninety, so it's even older than that, but remarkable, not not aChristian that I'm aware of, but I find it hard to believe that there's someone who could not benefitfrom reading shall be steal the content of Er character. It is hard to just say:Well, he's ' he's a conservative he's a liberal. I don't know that either label fits him.Probably you know, liberals would think he was a conservative, but he's reallyhe's honest, he's reflective he's personal he's in sightful and it's nota long book. I I underlined as much in that book as I have in any book for along time it's about a hundred and Secon ages and poetic and lyrical insome senses, wouldsayyes ve. Very much so I mean there were ther harts yeahfor a non Christian book. I felt myself stirred to want to sit back and examinemy own heart, and I really wish I'd maybe sometimes have an opportunity toto read through that book. If anyone is thinking of starting a reading group onwhite figility do shellbe steel instead, Itud be beneficial for you. I also read by Harvey Mansfield Book, published by Yal, amazingly calledmanliness published in two thousand in six, and he is a professor ofgovernment at Harvard University and he goes through and it's it's a it's adefense of manliness. But it's not he's not without h DU criticism. It's reallya look at literature and history and how manliness has been conceived andtrying to do, which must seem impossible, especially for a Harvardprofessor to try to put a good word in for manliness, which he defines as trying to find his exact wording. Butit's assertiveness and aggressiveness in the face of risk is his basicdefinition of manliness which w there's something to it. So that was a fascinating book. I thinkthere's other books youwould want to read on gender sort of issues, but that wasgood and then the third book, I'll mention by Amidy chleigs she's writtena number of good history books, one on Calvin Cooledge, one on the forgottenman about th, the Great Depression, and this one is called Great Society, a newhistory and four hundred and plus pages, and thenthe D, The ependases. But it's it's more or less a political and economichistory of the great society programs really starting in nineteen sixty fourLB G'S B J's speech. I forgot that that was at the University of Michigan,where he orhe unveiled the term great society and then sort of culminatingwith the destruction of the PRUITIGO housing complex in sint Louis, whichhas come to be known as you'll have to go. Google that, if you're not familiarwith it but come to be known as sort of the example of failedgovernment program. This massive housing complex, which made a badsituation a lot lot worse and ended up destroying family networksand systems and putting people into this massive housing complex in SaintLouis and then some years later destroyed the whole monstrosity. So youknow, Schleis is is more of a conservative, but she doesn't writewith you know: It's not it's not a hit job, but there is sort of an underlyingtheme in the book that the Great Society for all of its good intentions,in all of its massive outlay of resources, did not really accumulate along string of successes. So any last book before we move in thesecond half to some other topics book that you wanted to mention, I think we,I think, We'e got plenty to talk about. Okay, all right, all right, changinggears. I was talking recently with withanother Christian leader, someone little outside our circles, butI think you guys would know him. We had a we had a nice fifteen. Twenty minuteconversation talked about some...

...currntevet stuff, and then we actuallytalked about a half hour. Offline afterward ended up talkingabout some things related to politic in the election, some things related tocouvid and at the very end he says something. That' stuck with me: 'causehe's not reformed guy and he said. Would you reform people? Do the rest ofus a favor and really remind us of God'ssovereignty which was appoignant coming from? Youknow a friend WHO's, not in the reform sort of world, and so I'd love to getyour thoughts. I'll start with you just and you take in any direction you want. Buthow do we understand this interplay? I don't know if balance is the right word:Tension anteneme. What is the right word between the pursuit of safety which there's diblical precedence for looking to the ant, who stores up andbeing wise with your resources, so safety on the one hand, and an absoluterock, solid confidence in God's sovereignty in the other, because itstrikes me and we'll we'll talk at the general level first and maybe dip downinto some specifics that so much of what's Tevisiv right now for Christianshas to do with well how much of a risk are you really at Corona virus? Whatreally is the risk? Twenty twenty election? Is it another? You know,plight. Ninety three. Ninety one point: Ninety three election, that'? U Goin tocrash and we just need to take over the the cockpit, even if we all crash andburn and the risks could not be any higheror even looking at some racial unrest. Is it the case that there are constantthreats and risk to people of color seems like a lot of the things that aredividing us is a sense of well how big is the risk and then what do we do asChristians, who ought to find confidence in the sovereignty of God?And yet we do put on seat belts when we get into the car just in untangle thatGordian not for us, but I set it up for you guys to providethe real answer. I can pay the foil Yeahi'm, getting the bad answers out.First and I'll just come back, you know, and then Kevin will tell it like itreally is yeah. I I think sometimes we get intothis kind of teeter totter mentality of you have to have a little bit of thisand a little bit of that and you kind of balance the two out in your life andI think, that's one way to approach it, but I do think we need to have absoluteone hundred percent confidence in the soverignty Ofe God in just full. Stopwe don't need to say, I need to lessen that a little bit or I need to balancethat out. I need to believe that God is sovereign over all things. All thingshappene according to the counsel of his will, that th, the Stream is h. y, likethe in King's heart, is like water going through the king's hand, I meanit's, God is sovereign. He does whatever Hepleases, he's in Heaven and Um, even the the terrible things calamitycomes upon a city because the Lord has done it and the crucifixion being thethe greatest example of a human evil, those ultimately underneath God'sdesign and for orgained. I don't think that that means that wecan. Therefore, like you said Ven, we don't stop wearing seatbilts, because Ibelieve in the soveregnty of God um the thing that I've been hearing, I'm notgoing to say I hear it from everyone, but a couple of conversations stand outand both happen to be from older friends B, perhaps in their sixties,which may not be um relevant to the point saying I'm goingto die anyway and I know where I'm going and therefore I need to be livingwhen thinking about the coved thing. In particular, I need to live. I can'tstop living my life. I know I'm going to die and so therefore, I'm notworried, which I think there's some merit to that position. I do thinkthings are a little bit more complicated than that because we're notthe only people in the planet. It's not like we're living on a deserted island,and I'm just thinking about my own safety. You have to think about thesafety of my parents and I' my children and those I come in contact with. So atthat level I think there are competing interests at play. I think we need tohave a a robust confidence in the sovereignty of God. I think we alsoneed to think about competing balances in our life with regard to we're notjust individuals on an island, but we need to love one another and we need tothink about their safety, and I think we need to try to be asinformed as possible on the real nature of risks. Everybody ends up having tomake their own decision. That doesn't mean to science as what you feel, butwe all need to weigh in our own minds...

...and our own world view what the actualrisks are, because we all need to make a decision. I mean even deciding tostay home forever and not see anybody without a mask. That's a decision, so Ithink th. All of this is very complicated, but I think that's a goodword about believing in God's sovereignty, becausefor all of the media attention t at we hear Thas coant be one thing that isnever mentioned h. You know you're not going to hear that on Fox News, you'renot going to hear that on MS NBC. It's no consideration for them at all thatwe do have a lord who is sovereign over these things and if we trust him and ifwe know- and if we are called by him, he is not only in control but he'sworking it actively for her Gud Yeah O. It's very good. That's good diblicalframework, too Collin M just jotting down thoughts as Justin was talkingprompt, some things: how? How do you assess safety and sovereignty? My iitial instinct is to go toPhilippians. Four Thirteen folks know this passage I'll, explain what I mean.I can do all things through him who strengthens me from the Apostle Pole.One of the reasons I loved. That passage is because of its context, thethe verses that people don't usually quote eleven and twelve, not that I amspeaking of being in need for I've learned in whatever situation. I am tobe content. I know how to be brought Lo and I know how to babound an any anevery circumstance. I have learned at the secret of facing plenty and hungerabundance and need for of the broader contexts there simply palls, adapttability Tho different situations, because I think of overall his trust inGod's sovereignty. Think you see that, through his many different messages inthe book of acts, in particular about all the things that had happened to him,I think it's the thread that, whether spoken or unspoken, implicit or imples,and in Paul's life, that makes everything cohere it's how heunderstands himself and his calling. But I also think there's a way todiscern this risk, verses, Um, Ris, endurance or risk acceptance. Morebroadly, that's to jump back further in in Plippians for to consider what what Paul says there aboutdwelling on what is true and pure and lovely, going back even further inchapter for his command for us to rejoice in the Lord and be prayerful inall things. Um would not be anxious. What I get out of that is that, whenwe're dwelling on the positive, when we're dwelling on God's work, whenwe're dwelling on God's sovereignty, it helps to put into context why we'rerisking, because I think there's it's not merely a risk versus prudence,conversation, it's whom am I risking for so when you, when you're dwellingon the true and the lovely and the pure, in a rejoicing in the Lord, when you'rebeing prayerful and not anxious about these things, it helps you tounderstand that what risk you might be taking could be worth it because it'sfor God you're doing this ot of a positive motivation. It's not that allrisk is bad. Many risks n. This is a pipe rask point here, but a lot of riskis actually mandated of. Christians is something we have to do it's a worthything, but sometimes the risks that we take are absolutely selfish Um. Wemight even say that they're for God, but actually they're simply forourselves, they're they're more about pursuing certain idols, and so I thinkduring covid. You see a lot of that and I think it can be hard to interminglekind of separate those out, because somebody might be doing something thatthey say is for the Lord, but actually turns out to be pretty selfish instead,and I think it's in part because they're keeping a horizon on apolitical situation or in her personal dynamics, but they're, not thinkingabout sort of honoring, the Lord, in all those things, and I I'm not tryingto read anybody's mind there. This is more about myself of just knowing thatthat's the grid that I want to try to run things through to say, risk is good,and I want to dwell on dwelling the Lord so that I know when I'm takingthese rits, I'm doing it for him and not merely for my own angrandizement.So that's how I think about it Kevin. But how do you process it now thatyou've had a chance to find the holes in all of our argument? Ouh, I don'thave those holes, but thinking as a preacher perhaps got three quickthoughts. One and you guys said on this toosafety can become in idol. THAT'S BIBLICAL! That's Luke! Chapter Twelve,the parable of the rich fool. Storing up bigger barns, see there there's akind of greed that wants to acquire more andthen there's the kind of avarice that wants to save so much that you feellike you're, no longer at risk, and so in that story he says to himself soulself. You know B, t ease and he said,...'re a fool, you're, a fool. If youthink you have mitigated all risk in your life. Certainly you have notstored up against the eternal judgment that is to come, so it is very. It ispossible Sayhis to myself for safety to become in idol and relatend to that V.I think it's true that the safer we become as a people, the more inclined we are to demandsafety in every area of life. Now W WE KINDOF joke. You know we're children ofthe eighties or you know early nineties and the joke about and wear helmets onbikes and the crazy things that we did, and parents letting it just yeah go.Take your bike and ride to the the grocery store dumpster and u try tofind cans, because in Michigan it's ten cents deposit on a can and you findfive of those you can go in and buy some Johnny Apple treats they soundlike I'm from the nineteen fifties, or something but yeah, and you just selve peopleinto the back seat of your car and don't have car seats and all the rest,I'm a parent. I'm thankful. I think my kids should wear helmets and bucklethem into their carsee, but it is the case that when we live basically I mean our lives aresafer in this place at this time than in any place in time in the history ofthe world. I I don't know that. That's an exaggeration that we have a even alesser tolerance for risk or perceived risk, so that that's one thing. Second, is trade offs nd? Maybe we'll talkabout this with some of the particular examples three of us have talked outside of thispot cast before about just assessing. You know the pandemic in one of the thereal mistakes that I think has been made on a a big national level. Is Wedon't have enough people willing to talk about trade offs, so I am reallythankful for doctors and my family doctors in my church. I rely on theirexpertise and doctors should give you the best medical advice to mitigate anycontraction or spreading of the virus. That's what they do. That's what theyshould do. As a leader of a church ot a school ata state to the city, you need to take that into account and you have to takeinto account other trade offs, mental well being spiritual, health,economic, it's not just it's not as simple as you want people to diebecause you made this other decision there. There are going to be trade offs,and I don't remember if I said before in this pot yet, but it's like ifyou're in a some kind of lawsuit- and you ask your lawyer for advice- Thelawyer is always going to give you advice that mitigates your chance ofbeing sued or losing that lawsuit. So if there's something you do that willlessen your chance by five percent, the lawyer's going to have you. Do that?That's what a good lawyer does, but you need to take that in and say. Well,maybe that makes it five percent less likely that I lose the case, but maybeit makes it twenty five percent more likely than my reputation getsdestroyed on twitter Oy. You. You have to weigh that in not acquiesceautomatically to the expert in the particular field and then here's my sothe' There's always going to be trade offs and then the third thing you guyssaid a nice job. Talking about the biblical parameters of this. I think weneed to be realistic with each other, and this helps us may me deal with eachother as we come. We have different personalitiyes different ways ofassessing it that we're all constantly making those prudential decisions abouthow serious is the risk, so I may you know, seem or be able tosuggest. While I have such confidence in the sovereignty of God- and I don'tconsider my life worth anything that I'm going to go out and I'm going to goto church or do this or that, but it may be really the case that I actuallydon't think, there's much of a risk now, if, if the virus was hitting mainlychildren and praise God, it's not or if you knew that one out of ten people who gather andchurch will die this week. If you gather, then I thinka lot of people, O LD, say: Okay, I get whil you're, not gathering. That'sthat's not a risk worth taking. That is a price too high in this moment, notfor worship but for worshipping in this particular way. So, underneath a lot ofthese discussions are always I say assumptions, but they might not beassumptions. They might be learn in rational conclusions that people havereached or not about the level of risk,...

...and so that doesn't mean that we justthrow up our hands and say eah nobody's more right or wrong than anybody else,but it means we may actually agree on the theological stratus fere, but wehave to get down to what do you actually perceive the risk to be inthis situation? So what would you do I'm going to frame it that way, ratherthan making it a commentary on on John McArthur Grace Community Church? Butwhat would you do if you were the Pastur in that situation in Californiaand, let's just say, get all the caviatts out there, atleast for myself? I know John. I, like John, I'mappreciative of his ministry. I would say: He's a friend Um John then Leehmanfrom nine marks is a friend, ppreciate Jonathan. He was critical of thestatement from Grace Community Church and then the conversation pink back andforth in all of us. No people who wrote either in favor of what mcarthos Churchwas doing or opposed to it so y. That sometimes needs to be statedbecause we hear people talking and don't e there's, there's almost alwaysrelationships behind and what, where you want to go and what you don't wantto say, such just to put out there Um. I have relationships with people on allsides of this Colin wh. What would you have done? How wouldyou have progress, knowing that the situationseems to be, as as the point of at the point of this recording, very evolvingsituation, that grace won the first court and then the appeals courtoverturned that and sided with the county and we'll see where it goes fromthere yeah. I I wish I had some kind ofextreme views that would get a lot of attention and h would would come acrossis extremely confident, but you know my my thoughts are all over the place onthis, because there are things aspects that I agree with that I would want to.If I'm that pastor, I want to make those points and there's things that Ihave questions about, that. I wonder if I would, if I had to pursue that exact pass sojust to clear some things out there. I think we need to be clear that Um the questions right now have a LO. Alot of them have been revolving around whether or not churches should betreated worse than some other organizations. Now that was the case inNevada, specifically California's a different situation, but I mean if anabortion clinic is open or if a casino is open or if a liquor store is open orthings like that, so part of its just asking for fair treatment. But I wouldgo further constitutionally and the law can say otherwise, but IGO furtherconstitutionally to say, but those other things are not singledout in the constitution, but the free exercise of religion is so. I want tobe clear on constitutional grounds that I think churches ought to have far moreleeway and not be treated just as equals, but the constitution seems toallow that the government does not enter that sphere. At least in the sameway now I want to be clear: There's a lot of nuances going on there, but Iwant to stand with them in the sense that at some level we have to resistthe government's right t. They see to be able to intrude on religion which isnot necessarily theirs according to the Constitution. That brings us together,but then I balance that, at the same time, with the Calli, the voluntarycalling that a church would assume, which is to be good neighbors- and youguys brought this up earlier- that I, if this is a matter of freedom or amatter of conscience. Well, the Bible does push us in that regard to bethinking, but sometimes you need to be able to lay that aside, for the sake ofloving others and putting others first and considering others to be moreimportant than yourselves going back to the book of Phlippians there. So I'mthe pastor, I'm wanting to debate com not competing but complimentaryprinciples that I'm trying to bring together of making a a constitutionalpoint about a right that belongs to us by God's grace. Through thisconstitution, but at the same time saying that the Bible consistentlycalls us to lay down those rights for the sake of others. Now the other thing I want Ta justmention in terms of response, if I'm that pastor, I do want to ask the question- and thisis not a this- is not a vague notion. This is the same debate that my ownchurch has about this and I'm often on the opposite side of my own churchleaders. On this point, I'm just wondering why not smallergroups meeting, I think I have an aversion to a church that demands thatthey have to meet in a large group with one pastor preaching not that I'magainst that at all. I'm just saying,...

I'm not sure if that' There's alwaysgoing to be the best motivations, ecclesiologically or otherwise torequire that as if it's not really possible to be the church without thatopportunity there Um. But again, I want to balance that at the same time to say we have to meet sometime. This can't goon forever, Um we're not going to having thisconversation in six months, and I just read: Who is it Cristakis and I sanghis name right from the New York New York Times: Um Whos whoo o? No, I Russe off or talkaout Ti' tely, a gale professor, yes oky, whatever his lest Ame is yeah. Hejust said he thinks we are in phase one of the pandemic, which is going to last tothe beginning of Twentyn. Twenty two right yeah, a next phace is tweand andtwenty four yeah. So this this is what I mean and you can find learned intelligent people, some ofwhom have been right thus far, so you want to give them a little bit ofcredit, but them saying okay. This is a long term thing. Well, this is longterm thing. I can tell you one thing that is not going to be acceptable asan elder in my church for our church, not to mee. Now my church is meetingoutside distance and with masks as a congregation. I think we must have hadat that eight hundred people doing that in a parking deck this last Sunday, sowe're doing that, but I I'm just, but still our senior pastor says I thinkwe've had twenty five percent of our church leave. Already we've lost touchwith them. You talked about trade offs Kevin, that's just not a trade off I'mcomfortable with and I'm afraid that twenty five becomes forty becomes fiftyand beyond. If this can't happen, and at that point my risk assessment as apastor begins to change in under those circumstances, so I just dumped a lotout there, but that's that's where I'm coming F, insert one quick thing andthen get to justed and that's we've had some nice comments from peoplelistening in other countries and UK and other places were really G I'll. Justlet you, I think, there's something emblematic in our response as Americansthat that speaks to maybe the best and worst of that it'sthe same thing. I really. No, I don't know you cun tell me this is like thisin a lot of other countries, but I do think there is somethingquintessentially American that says no t don't M Ay we hear of how othercountries beat it and they all lock down and contract contact, tracing andfollow all the rules down to the letter and that's how you beat it t. There isa good big sense of the American spirit that says: If that's what it takes tobeat it, we don't want to beat it. We We um, you K, O, don't tread on me, don't tellus what to do we're going to do our we're going to do our own thing. Ain't!Nobody going to be the boss of us, especially the people that thinkthey're, the bosses of us. We don't trust elites now. I think, there'ssomething really dangerous about all that and I'd be lying. If I didn't sayat times, I think there's something I'm kindo proud of an that is kind of theAmerican spirit in this, and I think that's why you see. Now you look at ourdetsper million. It's not like the United States is the worst of theCivili, that's not the right term. You know what I mean the the worst of therest of the World Justin. How do you see this and in particularly thinkingabout churches, opening and n comment on them, a carthor thing or not? Yeah? I think it's a really difficultissue and your original question. If I was John mccarther, if I was an elderat Greece community, you know what exactly would I do I don't know andbecause I'm not in that situation, I haven't had to think through it as asdeeply and all of the ends and outs and all of the risks, and you know whatthat means legally for the church, Isnan entity. I thinkin general that I would try to make the constitutional case as best as possibleabout what the First Amendment allows and what the implications are. I thinkI would try to point out the hypocrisy. You know some people have made theargument. You know why should a liquor store be considered essential and achurch? Isn't I don't know that? That's always comparing apples to oranges, butthe protests are one where you'e talking about a large gathering ofpeople they are outside. But when you can compare like and like and show thatthe state is not only has a compelling interest inpublic health ut seems to have some sort of animous towards people of Faithand organize religion gathering. I think that's completely appropriate topoint out. I think for myself, if I was convinced of all of the argumentsthat the elders of grace community were convinced of and decided to exercise civildisobedience, I would have also tried... have gone extra mile in makingaccommodations within that context, so we are going to gather, but we aregoing to practice social distancing. We are going to wear masks, you know, evenif it's just apart from singing or just in the foyer, we will not gather unlesswe're outside for fellowship afterward. Everybody will take a pup of handsanitizer as they walk in any of those sort of things to to give a good faitheffort or gesture toward the fact that this is a serious issue. It's not justa hoax. It's not just made up, it's not just the same as fluseason, which you have prominent people saying every day. This is just theequivalent of a bad flu season M. You know, if they're convinced of thatthat's one thing, but I think to give some sort of accommodation. I don't think that's a compromise ofprinciples, but I think that might have put themselves in in better stead, butit's a difficult situation and I do think it's. It can be easy for us to todebate it online and somew abstractly about the principales and not to haveappropriate empathy for them as a church that unable together and they'resanctuary as they would desire to, and we can tell them to go gatheroutside but n, the California heat that mightcreate its own risks for elderly population and for others yeah and youno. Where might you be able to gather more safely cramming into people's homes or in a large sanctuary? You know thatdepends on whether you're going to try to social distance in either locationbut yeah. I think I've been you KN W. I I I found myselfsympathetic to what grace is doing now. I think the distinction we we'd allwant to make is. Is there a justification for whatthey're doing? I would say? Yes, does that mean that everyone ought todo the same thing? I would say no nd, I think that's where you know Jonathanand nine marks the point they were trying to make and others like them,that if the emphasis is all good, Christians will do what we're doing andpractice civil disobedience and meat. Then that becomes a question ofChristian freedom. I didn't read their statement that way when I went back andread it several times, I could see a couple of wines that that lean that way,so that's you know an interpretive issue. Icertainly agree that I would not want to say if you don't do this. You are abad Christian, but I'm sympathetic as a pastor again, if I saw the home depotparking lot full in knowing that there's hundreds of people millingaround and there and waiting in line a few feet apart from each other and thenall the church parking lots are empty. We've had a much better situation inNorth Carolina, we've been meeting indoors since the end of May and h. Wehave social distancing, we have a big sanctuary. We can fit about fivehundred people in we're wearing masks. So I'm with you just and I think, if Ihad to make that decision in California, I think I could have been persuadedthat Um. You know, after all of these months in some seeming hypocrisies that there's a right to practice. Civildisobedience, I would have said, let's, let's show forth, that we want to dothis in the best way possible, even if we ourselves aren't convinced of thethreat of the Pandimic with mask with social distancing. But I I certainlythink if, if they're going to physically bar the congregens fromcoming to church m find them a thousand dollars a day, H Y- I hope they don'tput John mccarthor in. I hope at that point, even if there are Christians whodisagree on some of the principles that we will stand up and say, wait a secondth. This is a massive government overreach. It's not as if the streets are linedwith corpses now not to mitigate t e, to lessen thesense of of risk that there is, but I would think just as l a county that atsome point you don't want this. This look on your head. You saidcalling to me that you know when you make a a martyr- hopefully prbbly, nota literal artor, but perceivein media martyr. Out of it Imean that is not a good looking and while l a county may feel like hey, wedon't have much of a price to pay politically. For this, I would thinksomebody, the national level, would say hey. This is not going to be the lookthat we want going into the twenty twenty election season, so I praynothing but the best for for grace and for paster John and hope that they staysafe and are able to continue to worship. Let's finish in his last two or threeminutes with, I don't want to say it's Ha most important topic, so I thinkwe're rsles talk about something...

...actually contract with something verynear and dear to our hearts. Big Ten football, Oh man has beencancelled. Nebraska is Um. You know going to find a way to play in theirown Cornfield of dreams against you know hastings or Norfork orconcordia or something but Justin. Should the big ten have cancelled theirseasons? Should they listen to justin fields in a quarter of a million signatures on the petition andreconsider have the only time I'mthe only time, I'm going to cheer for OhioState Right there, yeah what's say you Justin, my corn huskers were standing after thethe right to play the game of football and yeah.What a what a fascinating frustrating thing- and you know- We've talked about apestobology before and where your ad had motivated reasoning and I've beenmore on the side of caution, an and believing the threats, but whenit comes to football to think Oh, this is going to be sad. I think Nebraska nopostseason last year or so f. This a'll go through. We coul have twenty onemonths of of no football Um, so I think that they're on a more serious point, Ithink one of the frustrating things and Yow guys have texted about this with uson our little thread multiple times. The lack of communication is reallyfrustrating, so we can talk kind of joke about wanting to see football, butI think there's leadership, lessons there. If you're going to make adecision, explain why you decided and you're not going to win everybody over,but if you actually give data here's. What we looked at here were the prosand the cons. Here's! What led us to make this decision. I think, then, youend up leading people better and you know seeing local school districts ourlocal school district change course, two weeks before school started with aa new plan, virtually no explanation and Ou know I sent a note to thesuperintendent which I'm sure he won't read as saying. If, if you couldexplain what led you to this position and what will be the triggers to changethe position that inspires confidence, but justarbicurely kind of waving your hand and making a a declaration is neverconfidence inspiring. So I do think there's some practical lessons for usas leaders communicate, provide reasons, be transparent, inso far as it'spossible, and you might help at least a minority of the people who are listening and and trying to trust inyour decision and boy. I I'm trying to heed all of our lessonsof epistepic humility and all the things wet sid before, because we'renot college presidents, we weren't in the room, and yet it does it it's hard to think that theoverwriting concern is the health of the student athletes. When likely more people would be negatively affected long termby concussions in any given year, then covent. No, I don't really know that.So that's just I. It seems that way to me, but I don't know it so perhapsthat's it. It's hard to not think that, there's a that. The risk is higher, uh that with lawsuits legal battles N-that's not irrelevant, but then, if that's, it then say: There's too many legal risksand when I just wonder what the Big Tin, commissioner is feeling when he lookedbehind him and he's got the pack twelve and and nobody else and as we talkedabout somebody's going to come out of this thing, looking really smart andreally dumb, because if three power fived conferences play and two don't you're either going to have, you know asmattering of cases, but nobody really gets very sick and it's going to looklike wow. That was silly and you hurt your brand in your team for five years or Havee forbid people end up in thehospital or somebody dies and then the big ten, an the pack twelve looked likethey did. The noble thing, so we do want to be chastened with what we know,though, as fans I's hard not to be frustrated Callin. What should the BigTin do? Coidan, SC C team and a big ten tamejust now, thathae, as as unions, there of nolting your bets with twoconferences, that is the genius there, O man, I thought northwestern, wasgoing to have a good year this year, I'm not even joking. I was reallyfeeling good about this. I'm still also, sadly, holding out hopethat they will change their minds M, probably not likely to happen, but younever know you guys. This pod cast started out as a as a COVID ARA podcastand we're continuing it as govid...

...continues and what's what's just discouraging ishow we're basically asking the same questions that we were at the verybeginning, which experts are we supposed to believe Um? Who are thestakeholders in these decisions Um who is who is supposed to benefit who'ssupposed to not benefit? Who needs to sacrifice and how do the stakeholdersmaking the decisions? How do they make those decisions? It still seems to me at every level andand just in it's pretty similar with the with the schools. I don't know who, who are we, who whoismaking the decisions, how ere they making the decisions? I mean I tell Yo,I I had a little bit of just discouragement within my own church,because I was frustrated by the plan that our our pastors were taking. What was so helpful to me, even in theend where I continued to disagree, was them explaining what the alternativeswere and then explaining why they did not think those alternatives werebetter and, interestingly Kavin. You already cited the main alternative,which is: Is it more dangerous to have people all over the place and all kindsof different, smaller groups in houses than to have them in one concentratedplace where at least you know and can observe what they're doing? That wasthe decision of why my church went in that direction and when I walked awaysaying I'm still not sure that's what I would have done, because I think therewere some different goals being reached when I understood the goals and then Icould align those decisions with their goals and then I could see how my goalswere a little bit different. It was just it just allowed me, even in mydisagreement to calm down and say: okay, we disagree. We have alittle bit different goals here and I think that's just in what you'recalling for of r or Kom what you were calling for of. If it's about liability just say that you know we're losing a tone of money,but we actually think we lose a lot more money, potentially with lawsuitsand we're just being real conservative about this, and we know it stinks, butthat's the legal atmosphere that we operate in, I'm sorry, you could livewith that disagree, you'd live with it, you can live with it, it's not fun, butI don't know how I'm supposed to argue that, because, ultimately I don't haveproximity to that. I'm not a college president who has to make that decision,and so I which experts do you believe who arethe stake holders and how do they make their decisions just, and I think thatemail that you sent is a very respectful, reasonable email to simplysay what will help you to change that decision and th N. it's it's suspicion.That breeds a lot of contempt, and one thing I saw recently our healthofficial in Jefferson County Alabama said: I'm actually I'm planning to keep themasks going, all the thro all the way through winter, because it'll also helpwith the flu. I just felt like that was beingfacetious. I felt that was, it was being unfair to say. Oh we've beentrying to get you for years. To do this. We found an opportunity to finallyforce you to do this, and now we might as well just keep it going, and Ithought, but you sold us on all these things as an extraordinary circumstance.It feels like you, keep changing the rules here and now I don't even knowwhat the end is, because I don't have anybody's making decisions or for whatgoals. That's what I keep coming back to in the big ten is. I keep looking atthe loss for the players for the coaches for the employees, everythinglike that and then I come back and then I'm just left with. Maybe theycancelled the season because they really just didn't want to deal withthe Union's question. I my my skepticism, my even my suspicion startto multiply and I think you're you're right that we have to think about all of those factors and ifpeople would tell us exactly what theyr thing I get it, it's not alwayspolitically palatable. But to use the football metaphor, it's the moving ofthe gold posts that gets frustrating to people. It's confusing enough to knowwhich experts to believe, but then, if the goal becomes Ligtin a curve and then the goalbecomes something else or if it seems like these are extraordinary measuresfor a season and then people feel like you know what this is pretty good andwe think we we'll just keep doing this in perpetuity M my plan. I don't knowwhy this can't work any politician. You can feel free to just take this as yourown, but you get some your smartest lawyers to to have parents and studentathletes sign a I mean just Tan. You made the point. If your kid goes, youknow rock climbing somewhere. He basicallysigns his next. If kin away must be some some form, you can sign that canremove you from legal liability, not the public perception and then whatabout this? What, if Congress you get... partisan support for this Congresspasses a one time for Twenta twenty, only that they're going to pay theseplayers. Okay, we're we're printing money like crazy Kay. We pay theseplayers. We give some sort of across the boardstipened because they're doing this for themselves, but for the fans not likethe NFL, the N B ater and paid millions of dollar. So we pay them something andin this college football stimulus package- and you know it we're justgoing to bite the bullet and say we're not doing it for cross country ingymnastics. Okay, we're just doing it for college football and h. You have inthis stimulus package some sort of bubble in the in the cornfields ofNebraska and th y they're, going to do, there's zoom classes anyways with theirtutors. So let 'em do it they're going to be healthier, they're going to besafer, they're going to get all the testing all you know. It just seemslike a wind for everyone. Okay, we're going to end with that yeah I wan. I want to see Alabama playoutdoors in Nebraska in November and December nownow. I ne on that would befun. I hear hear all right. Well, we have gone over time, but we've had alot to say and a little bit of it has been helpful, but Justin't going goodto be with you. Lord Willin We'ill be back again and hope. Everyone has to bea great week until next time or if I got enjoy t forever and read a good.

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