Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode · 1 year ago

Live Conversation with J. Ligon Duncan, III


In this episode of Life and Books and Everything, Kevin DeYoung interviews Dr. J. Ligon Duncan, III, chancellor of Reformed Theological Seminary. This interview was recorded live on stage from the Faithful Conference at Christ Covenant on November 7th. Listen and you’ll learn the books and people and places that made Dr. Duncan who he is. You’ll even find out his DJ name. 


Early Life and Conversion [00:00 – 7:16] 

A True South Carolinian [7:16 – 10:17] 

Encounters with God in Study [10:17 – 15:20] 

Taking the Racial Blinders Off [15:20 – 23:08] 

Critical Race Theory [23:08 – 27:47] 

Reformed Books [27:47 – 31:57] 

Covenant Theology [31:57 – 33:08] 

Ligon Unplugged [33:08 – 38:50] 

Lightning Round [38:50 – 48:27]  

Books and Everything: 

Knowing God, by Jim Packer 

Search the Scriptures, edited by Alan M. Stibbs 

Studies in the Sermon on the Mount, by Martyn Lloyd-Jones 

Reformed Dogmatics: Theology Proper, by Geerhardus J. Vos 

Dr. Duncan’s Class on Covenant Theology in the RTS App (iOS | Android

Favorite Hymn: “How Sweet the Name of Jesus Sounds,” by John Newton 

Systematic Theology, by Louis Berkhof 

Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras,” mvt. 2 from Ein deutsches Requiem, by Johannes Brahms  

It readings and salutations welcome backto life and books and everything this is Kevin dyoung next week. Hopefully Iwill be joined again with Justin and Colin, as we finish off this seasonbefore we take a break for the holidays and we'll be interviewing Carl Trumanand talking about his excellent new book, the rise and triumph of themodern self, but for today we have a special interview- and this took placeabout ten days ago at our faithful conference that was hosted at ourChurch and after his opening address. I took about forty five minutes tointerview my good friend, Ligan dum kin, so I hope you'll enjoy the conversationthat leagand. I had a couple of Saturday evenings ago in front of someappropriately masked and social distance people at our church and wasable to talk to Liggan about his background about his love for Climsonfootball, about critical race theory. And of course we talked about books ifyou're not familiar with Lig. You need to know that he is the the pope ofpresbyterianism. Well, if there was a pope, he would get a lot of votes, buthe was for many years. The senior minister at First Presbyterian, churchand Jackson, Mississippi, is now the chancellor and CEO of reformtheological seminary. So, yes, he is my boss. A lot of people can say thatabout Ligan and in addition to all of those things and writing books andhaving a PhD from the University of Edinburghoh, he is as everyone whoknows, him can attest a fine kind, Christian gentleman and he's a goodfriend to me and to many others. So I hope you enjoy this interview withLegan good to have you with us. Well, I don'tknow if this is fun for you, but one of the reasons I do this conference. Istarted one like it. My last church have en trying to fit and starts to getit going here, but covid and other things interrupted. But here we are andfor me I love to be able to bring in friends and leaders like Ligan and getto her preach, of course and teach. But this is almost the highlight for me.It's to ask him questions interview him. It's fun. I learn things but also feelslike now. You're, not a stranger here lad, but it also feels like getting mychurt family to know a friend of mine and getting this good friend to knowthese dear brothers and sisters here. Christ coven and I know we have somefolks who are visiting from other churches, we're glad you're here. SoI'm Goinna, I have look at I'm, so you can tell thim not millennium anGensi O, because I wrote things out on an nopad interview, Likan Dunkan, maybethe most important question. What is the score of the Clinson game? I haveno idea somebody some worldly person out there ide I've tried not to thinkabout that. So I could serve you well. Why is it notodays winning? But you know it'sceartainly terly. Well, just so tell us just a little bit and I got abunch of questions so the do as best as you can for a preacher.To Be Short, I know it's hard for us, but tell us a little bit about yourbackground, your family, how you became a Christian. I grew up in GreenvilleSouth Carolina. My Dad was a ruling elder in our Presbyterian Church, myhome church. My mom was the Phir director, so we were the last ones toleave church every Sunday, so I grew up in a wonderful Christian, home, mom anddad you know, taught me the Gospel and the scriptures from my earliest days.My father helped me memorize the shorter catechism. When I was threeyears old,...

I made a public profession, tol bake.When I was about ten years old. My Pastor had done a wonderful job ofexplaining the Gospel. He was a man named Gordon Reed, who taught it Ur, TSand and pastors to this day, pastors tolite churches down in Sardinian and alhalu South Carolina. SoI had a I had a wonderful, homewife and church like where the Gospel was taughtto me from my earliest days, and I you know, I can't remember a day when Ididn't know that I was a center in need of grace and that I didn't know thatJesus was the one that I needed for my savior and I professed that publicly.When I was ten years old and then really by the time, I was fourteen felta call to the ministry and your your mom is still mom got he really ipressive yeah wman,God willing will be eighty eight years old in about a month. She is in still living in Greenvilleliving with my youngest brother Mel, and she is still the matriarch of the ofthe family and are you so Mel Duncan is on staffat Second Press Green? How some of you know that some of Tyou maybe know RickPhillips? Is the senior minister there and you are a proud South Carolinian,but you men in Mississippi for a long time as well. I don't know anyone whois more South Carolina than your brother Mow. He is he's very southheroline now. Do you share that or yeah? I preached there two years ago fortheir conference and I was doing Sonday, and so I said it on the Sunday schooland once you know it, your brother Mall was doing a Sunnay school class onSouth Carolina, Presbyterian histoory, which increased my knowledge, multiple, multiple Polus, it Wa. It wasnot great before that O. I are you just as die hard about all things, SouthCarolina very much so very much so i'v. my dad was from Union County SouthCarolina just south of Charlotte and and came from a family that had been inSouth Carolina since, before the the the Lord proprietors had had contractfrom the king to be in Charlestown, so family has many generations of SouthCarolina History and dad was inhistry buff and I've always been a historybuff. So I love all things South Carolina, there's a famous story whenJohn Lafiette Jeredo, the famous Charleston preacher, was released fromhe was a prisoner of war during the civil war and when he was brought backon a wagon from the prison camp that he had been in in the north. As the wagonapproached the state border of South Carolina, he shouted out to the driver,stopped the wagon stop the wagon. I must lay my head on the bosom of mymother, South Carolina and John Adger. In his biography says it was a strangescene, but it was characteristic of the man yeah. So that's! That's a typicalSouth Carolinia IHAV, my phone over there but Y my watch is connected to itand it just said that Mel Dunkan Textin thes, so I can't see what it is elseWaso when I I'm very happy to be here in Charlotte,moved here over three years ago and my family, and I love being here and a Yankee. You know that's where I'mfrom and when, when you're, when you grow up north of the lason Dixon Line,sort of especially n Michigan everything south in Michican. So Iremember one time I was at a conference in Louisville and I got back one of ourdeacons said now: wn You were out of town this week. Were you in Texas orwhere were you I said Wyl I was in Louisvilli Sai. I knew it s some placedown. South us sort of kind of everything is t the same. So when Yo.You said this to me many times and I...

...should have been spart enough torealize this, but you talk about how different Mississippi is in SouthCarolina when you're from Michigan it's all kind of just out. Just likeeveryone said now you're from Michigan. I went to Minneapolis one time now.THAT'S MINNESOTA! I will start with N it's very confusingr cold. What's different, you've been in OBIdown there, a lot of different subcultures in the states in the south,but there are also subcultures within thes state. So in many of the coastalstates there will be an up country, a midlands and a low country with verydistinctive culture. So in South Carolina the low country was dominatedby the English planter class. The up country was dominated by Scotch IrishYoman farmers, and so you had very very different cultural political attitudesdepending on what part of the state you were from and then in then states likeGeorgia, Alabama and Mississippi were often populated by the third sons offamilies in the Carolinas that didn't have any land that they could get fromthe family farm. So they moved to Georgia or Alabama or Mississippi toget farm land and start their own families out. So when I first got toMississippi, I run it. I ran into a lot of names that I recognize is SouthCarolina Surnames, but they were people that had come to Mississippi. You knowmany years ago in search of land and Sude, so you doget different cultures in Mississippi, O have part of the the coastal regionof the state, very Catholic and there's really not a really Catholic part ofNorth or South Carolina, but there's a there's a Moradian part of NorthCarolina. You know, so you get all of these different, interesting things indifferent southern states that impact the culture so just give it to astraight H t what is the South Carolina stereoteve about North Carolina? Oh, Ishouldn't say that er almost Thanko, you would have to read the introductionto Ben Roberson's, Red Hills and wel. I know that's want to be AE Sou WIR onNorth Carolina Yeah. Well, I can tell you what my kids think of SouthCarolina: That's where you go to buy fireworks ah case you go across the boyand yeah. You get fir mors ye fireworks, so you grew up in South Carolina. Youwent to Firman, you went to covenant and you got your PhD in Edinburgh. What did you learn at each of thoseplaces? Maybe it's an academic answer, but maybe it's how you grew in yourfaith. Just tell us give us a quick snap shot of God's working your life ateach of those intime. The Lord was really good to put men in my life, notjust my dad, who was a great dad, but other godly men in my life, from myhigh school to my college, to seminary and and the Postgraduate Work Ho justhad a wonderful effect, not all of the ministers, some of them ruling elders,Godley Leman. That taught me what it was like to be a Christian man. Whatthe important things in life were. So my college chier director hada huge impact on me, was really really good to me and I learned a lot in thatcontext. My when I was in St Louis RobertRaybren, who had been the longtime president, the seminary sort of took meunder his wing and mentored me and was really good to me, as was David Calhounwho you'll have read David, was a historical theologian who Fello South Carolinian the Soninlaw ofAlan flee. Some people will recognize the name of Allan Police from Columbia,International University and Graduate School. David was very good to me and and thenI had the same experience in Edinburgh, so good church life in each of thoseplaces and Godly men in my life that that modeled either good pastoralministry or just good Christian living. Did you find lots of Duncans when youlived in Scotland Duncan is so much...

...more a it's the given name more than asurname in Scotland. You do find Duncans, but it you know Duncan is typically a first name and-and you can imagine with the name like mine, people were confusing it all thetime. My Duncan Ligan an what am I so yeah you do run into a lot ofDunkins. Ahow often have people wondered if Legan Your Ministry is yourMi all the time I do credit Leganer Leganer is one of the reasons whypeople can pronounce my name. That's true, because you can imagine when thename like Ligan, you get called all sorts of things, and when I starteddoing stuff with leganear ministries, I started having people say: Hey is thisnamed after you and they could say Ligan so and it's J liggin. So what'sthe Jy and why D you go with Liggan? Well, my name is Jennings Ligan Duncanthe third, so my father and his father were both named Jin, O Your Don and nowmy son, Jenning Faly Good Nune in the fourth Jennings Ligam was the name of acircuit writing methodist, minister in the Edgefield District of SouthCarolina in the late nineteen century, and he must have had an impact on mygreat grandparents because they named heir third son after him, JentingsLingan and one of the interesting things about that is. My fatherinlawcomes from a line of methodist ministers and in the Old MethodistDirectory for the conference in South Carolina in the nineteent century. The name Harley, which is my wife'smain name, is right next to the name Jennings Ligan, in the old methodistdirectory, so the so my fatherinlaws ancestor and the person for whom Inamed are right next to one another in the methodist direct roompredestination. So at any rate, what did you study withyour Doctoro work and who was it with? I worked with Ha man, name David Wright,who was an expert in both reformation and in early Christianity, and I got terrible advice from a professor,which I've always been glad that I got the terrible advice was go. Doing dosomething on my in my PhD that I had never worked on before, which is justAsol. ABIC IIN is criminal, criminally bad advice, and so I spent two yearsfeeling like the stupidest human being on earth, because I'm studying with oneof the best guys in the world on this topic- and I know you know about what aseminary and who's had one ancient and medial church history course knows, butI'm really glad I worked in early Christianity because most Protestants in certainly in h s were not paying alot of attention Arley Christianity. Now today the Lord has raised up Wonderful Bible,believing reformed the Elogians, like your Christian education, Pastor, here,Blair Smith, who know the fathers, but that was not supercommon in H S and andby the way ourts has been blessed with a surfade of riches. In that regard,we've got a number of guys that know their stuff in early Christianity andthat's very important in our day in time, O going back, you're, obviously proud, N, anappropriate way of being South Carolinian being southern being.However, many generation Presbyterian and ruling elders in your your family,so you're grateful for your history. You're grateful for your southernhistory you're not looking to top all the metaphorical statues inyour past and yet you've spoken that number of venues. You know quitepersonally and publicly it Tis about your own experience of race and understanding race.

What have you learned in the lastTispal on years? How you Chang? It was just that I had blinders on Kevin and part of those those blindershad been actually cultivated to me in the way that history was told in thesouth and part of it was just not knowing what to look for and I've goneback and, for instance, I've gone back and I'velooked at notes that I took, and I took a southern presbynteriain historycourse with Davy Calhoun in one thousand nine hundred and eighty fiveDavid. He sprinkled all the bread crumbs out, and I mean all the thingsthat I should have known and everything should have come together in click. Ishould have known one thousand nine hundred and ighty five, but forwhatever reason I am slow and it just took theLord a long time to open my Eyes O. Oh, oh, that's what was going on so youknow yeah, I'm not I'm not a historical IKINDOF class looking to sort of debunkeverybody in the past or but I also as a good historian. I want to be honestabout what had happened and Mark Devor, and I've talked about thislot because he had a very similar UPBRIN. He was in Kentucky and that hada very similar view of the south and a politics and of culture, and he- and Ihave both said- you know that our historical reading in the last twentyyears has really ruined the nostalgic sort of view thatwe had had about the southern past and but honestly, that's a more calvinisticway of looking at things. You know, because this is a falling world andpeople are totally to pray and they do terrible things and even wonderfulpeople can do terrible things, and so I want to be honest about all of it andyou know just just because a person you know even a great person does somethingwrong or holes wrong. Views doesn't mean that everything else that they diddoesn't matter, but you do want to be honest about the effect of those thingsthat they had done wrong or embraced wrongy. So it as safe to say you and Iprobably learn American history from our our did.You go to public school M, probably in very different ways. I mean I know not saying what was youbetter ar worse? Just I mean growing up in Michigan in a public school in the Sand S, we certainly learn about the civil war and is kind of mean it'simportant AF. We watch the kin burns thing like every year. In my historyglass we often had the coaches teaching the history classes ill sens to thecoaches, but they got a Enoa Yaur. You know I'm good good for you. If youwatch the kid burn stuff, but the funny thing is in Rga an times you know kemkin burns is being criticize. I know is far to right right that yet shell befut on there. Yes, yeah, but we you know, I just learned as sort of a straight line from bat toMarti withor King Winer, who was a hero and was great and the civil war was youknow. I'Veen learned Lee was was an admirable person, but yeah good thingthat the union on and sort of next part of the history- and you probablylearned in a different way- yeah yeah and but honestly, the the similaritiesbetween the way that American history has been taught in the northern schoolsand the southern schools are greater than the differences actual Ri. So bothnorthern and southern public education had a very similar view ofreconstruction and it was a view of reconstruction that was highlyinfluenced by the way. The southern thinkers tried to influence the way that that that reconstruction was perceived. It was akind of great corruption, and you know, thankfully, that finally,the troops were removed and the suppression left and things were muchbetter once they were gone and actually reconstruction in the in the northernnorthern school textbooks, probably...

...wers tauht very similarly to the way itwas in southern school textbooks and, of course I wasn't interested in thatEura. I was interested in the civil war. I was interested in the Americanrevolution. I was interesed in the first World War in the Second World Warand the Great Depression. I wasn't interested in reconstruction, and thatreally is that you'R we're so much get set going forward into the twentiethcentury, and I that's just something that I did not adequately study orunderstand. So, as you look at, I don'twant to say a church like this,but Maye just more broaly the PCA and just stick for a moment. Thinkingabout issue of race, which is so difficult where, where you concerned from theright O, where you concern from the left, just speak to what you think somedangers are well. You know, I think, our biggest challenge in the PCA, sineoethousand nine hundred and seventy three has been that of indifference, rather than some sort of active racialanimous sort of animating, our alot of life and bilosophy and church life. Ithink our founding fathers actually faced squarely the issue of segregationand rejected it at the outset of of the the movement that formed the PCA, andthat was actually a brave and a courageous thing to do in thesoutheastern us of t s where you had. You know real live segregationistrunning for political office and winning it and where you could still beostracized socially for not upholding that ideal of segregation and foundingfathers, like Jim Beard and Don Patterson and Kennedy Smark, and I can ge down a longlist of these men. All squarely said we want to be a denomination or all people.We want to reach out to everybody, and that was a brave thing to do in s and early. So it would be wrong to paint those menas sort of out of control racist. I think when Jim Bar spoke about this onthe boar of General Assembly, he said the thing that bothered himlooking back is that they had not. They had not cared at enough about the issuewasn't that they were prosegregationist or pro Racisti. They had not realizedhow damaging that had been and and how they needed to concentrateon that in the early days of the church. So I really think that the the PCA has,you know, has tried to do the right thing in in that area and try to worktowards racial harmony and soliderity and reconciliation. I just think thereare a lot of historical courses at work that are going to make that long, hard,slow, frustrating war. So I can lask question on this topic,so I can sometimes feel a little bit in a Noman's land, because I do think that white rerformd Christians have oftenbeen indifferent and we have often been blind to invisible barriers wehave at this. So I want to acknowledge thatand I want to be sympathetic, and I want to always be open to learn fromyou and I'v been on. Some of the same calls- and I always learn from these- these sharp good heartedafricanamerican brother riht. At the same time, we hear a lot about critical racetheory and rigt. I do think that's a big problem and I think it's atotalizing sort of ideology. What what do you think we should be onguarde from...

...the left for lack of a better term withthe kind of cultural pressure to think about race in a certain way, which attimes is hat odds with Biblical anthropology and Herminutics? Well, Ithink, for one thing, we need to look at where those problems are. I wasstart. I wouldn't have known what they would call, but even when I was infirman in the nineteen late s early s in the English ind, the history I wasseeing stuff, I wouldn't have known to call it critical theory, but I wasseeing I was singing. I was seeing queer theory in English class, so wehad to read an article hole come on down to the rack, a cuney which was ahomoorotic retailing of huckleberry Finn, Weird, Jim and hut had arelationship going on. So I was in th and S I was already encountering SomThinking, where's this coming from and so critical race theory is part of alittle Catina of critical theories that hade been making their way through thehumanities for the last thirty years, and I think at the university level, wereally need to keep our eye on that and people like Jonathan Hiht andHeterodoxs Academy, and there's lots of secular, non Christian scholars thatare really yeah. John Mequarter. I mean it a bunch of people that are reallyconcerned about this kind of stuff. I've been a part of a group called theNational Association of scholars that again they're, not Christian they're, alot of are secular evolutionary, but they hate this kind of bad approach tothe humanities, AD approach, Tho, history and and and they they'rebasically calling you know, trthey're calling for amodernist rebuke of post modernity and it's relativism. So I do think we needto keep our eye on that and ask ourselves: How does that impact ouryoung people that are going through that kind of education? What attitudesdo they have coming out on these kinds of issues when they come back into thechurches? Are they aware that that's working on them and that they may notbe getting clear picture of a field because of the grid ave? I was tellingyou the other day. My son is in a critical theory, English class rightnow and he is having to read all of this stuff, and so that's actually beengood to be able to talk through that with him and point him to goodresources to go to. I think in in in out the current conversation on thatwe're hempered by some bad faith, players on both the left and the right,some guys on the on the sort of Alt right, I would say, would say everytime. Somebody raises a concern about racial history of the past. They'reimmediately accused Tof, being M Tut Marxist critical theory, Blah Blah Blah.Then No, I'm actually just trying to be biblical about this and think about it.So I think you have to watch out for it being used as a bug bear or a scareword or you know, sort of an epitet to stockconversation. On the other hand, there're serious people. Interestingly,our mutual friend him Keller really concerned about how he sees thisplaying out in northeast elite universities and how it shuts downconversation- and you can't have rational discussion, because if youeven hold af you, this shows that you're, indifferent to the livedexperience of minorities and this kind of thing he's really concerned aboutthis, inappropriately so at the university level. So I think I thinkyou can simultaneously say that's not going to be helpful in thisarea, and yet we've still got problems that we need to work on in the area ofrace or whatever ram other ancritical. You know theory area of Interese therwell as lost cor, quick. Let's take it back to reform theology, your young Christian.What were some of the formative books that really shape you in thinking inbeing a reformed Christian?...

Knowing God was huge for me. John. Never was a PCA minister inHendersonville North Carolina, who was a good friend of Jim Packer, and he hadco, pacter come and speak at the PCA church in Hendersonville, and when Iwas fourteen or fifteen, I went and heard Gotna packer speak and and as ateenager ready's booked a couple of times. I probably got five copies outit that I've marked up actually teaching my son and daughter and futureson inlaw through that book on Sunday nights after Church right now, the zoomthat book just had a huge impact on me, knowing God a little book called searchthe scriptures that intervarsty produced basically just a Bible readingplan that was before I ever started, working through the robber, Murrymcchain daily reading plan. I read through search the scriptures andmarked it off with with, through probably two or three tins in myteenage Y R mytenage years. That was super help. While I was, I was startingto become aware of URC sprolls popular stuff. At that time, singler Fergusonwas another person. My Pastor was on the Board at West Minster Seminary andsink. There was a new professor at Westminster in the s and he came anddid a Bible trip a conference at Second Prason Greenwal, so I was, I was reallybeing exposed to the best contemporary guys in reform theology and and then,of course, they started getting me into. You Know Puritan literature that I hadnever heard of before. My mother was a big Loy Jones Fan. She had a copy ofthe Oll Voy Jon Surron themount in the two volume set an the way it wasoriginally published that she just read till it was falling apart. My pastorwas a big Loyd, Jons Fan, and so you know I got I remember getting a gift ofstudies in the sermon on the Moud and and some of the early Wood Jonessermons that got put into look form, and so I had a a good foundation laid for me in my teenageyears, just but the good recommendations of my pastors andparents. What's been a book you've read in the last year so that provoked you moved, you stimulated youintellectually. Maybe you loved it, and or maybe you just made you think aboutsomething I have appoiant- that is so hard just dosomething the whole in our hole. Yeah Yeah, let's talk about your books Kevin, I my books, e Youro. I have I have loved reading through vicesreform dogmatics and for people that sort of play thebiblical theological Advis over against systematics. Give us a quick categorycase. People think isn't that the same thing, what Da you aris an all theologypeople will use the term Biblical theology to the study of the Bible fromthe standpoint of the unfolding of redemptive history, so you're sort ofmoving historically and Rhonologically, rather than topically INSO SYSTEMACtheology wants to look at the Bible topically and ask how all the topics ofthe Bible relate to all the other topics of the Bible. And how do yousummarize those things in a faithful, helpful way? Biblical theology willmove dimatically and chronologically a pross scripture and and when they workright, they both go together and they help one another. But some people havesometimes pitted them as an either or rather than is about. Then so, when youread vices, systematic theology, it lets, you know how he is able tooperate in systematic categories, but just as much comfort as he doesBiblical theological category. So that's that's Geen, a fun thing to readthrough so some of the people we know John Pipers saying is Christianhedanism or David Platt's thing is...

...radical and Tim Kellers thing is thescity. Is Your thing? Covenant Theology, Oh i'mmean, coving at theology has beenmy great love since I was a seminary student and I would say it's probablyother covenmant theology or the Westminster standards. I mean I just Ilove teaching the Westminster Standards and I love teaching covenment theology.So if anyone you can go on your phone later, get the arts APP. You go thereto the bottom, listen I think or lekers you can get several classes for free and you canlisten. I've been listening to some in my Car Ligans class on CovenantTheology, so you can get thirty hours or whatever it is in force for exturing,uncommin, antheology good for driving around good for houseword goods, ormaybe sleeping and you can. You can yeah. This is very good for sleepingyou can download that RTS mobile ap for free and then thereare over forty fivecourses for free whole horses, they're there and there's some really richstuff. Is it true that you Modalon, with with the top with the like a littlearttspin and Ta Su? What is Liginon Clug? Look like ell. You saw me thismorning. UNPLAYIN M had a CSEUSHIRT and the Taki Pan Yeah is that as UN plug asagain no I mean I will wear short to round the house: Okay Yeah, but not not,but normally. I am like this Ye h, okay, whwould anyone ever catch you in thegrocery store Teyi. My Lip Flo Bab might catch me in the local grocerystore in my cargo shorts and my tshirt and my keens, and is that scandalizingfor you? And it's embarrassing for me- and I did that so normally I just dresslike this Yeph tat's Goodat's good, so give us give us one thing that you'regood at that. We wouldn't know you're good at. We know. U Lots of things youare' good at and then give us one or two things that you're bad at, becauseit can seem like Liggan, just k o knows everything and thows everybody so giveus a surprising good thing and then a couple of things to make us feel goodabout ourselves that your Badwell I used to be good atbasketball, yeah and I'm bad at it. Now. Okay, I was the I was the player coach forthe University of Edinborough Basketball Club, while I was there andand that we traveled Europe playing games and had fun doing that. But mybasketballdays AV helps oner in a place. Tat Me is just learning what the gameis about. Well, ithinally, almost my whole teamwas made up of Americans okay, so I had one Scotjet ones got one Englishman andone German and the rest fer Americans, although I must say my Scott- was mywehe's my best score. He had a he didn't believe in defense, but he couldpor thirty points agame, but but yeah once upon a time. I was goodat basketball, but I'm not anymore. I love history. I've just I love readinghistory for my personal adipication, any kind of history, world history,American history, military history, and so that's something that I love andlove being able to talk to people that, like to read books, and so you know you-and I will talk about things that we're reading and benefiting from what am I I'm bed ED. A lot ofbuies In't have to be here for a while, I'm bad, I don't I don't I'm terriblewith cars. Andhy Wers Mike Miller, he has hell me Chage, my Terp initkayrrepair, my kid, the other one of my kids, the other day. There's a lot ofthem said O dad. Can you help me? Hang this up, and my wife just says you probably Goingtawant me to do that. I mean IA to turn... Myin your man Arforandi, try to likemonkey around with something at home. Ut, I'm not handy like some of thesehusbands are handy out here right. You know there's some things that I'm goodat, but the the you know we start messing with electrical stuff, I'mgoing to bring in somebody that actually knows what now you're fromSouth Carolina Doyou. Do you like to kill animals? I have never hunted. Okay, never huntedall right fish. I am too impatient to fish yeah, my boys, they it's! You can all beproud. We moved out here and they o go fishingher fo all the time they find alittle Poitin the woods a they want to go fishing alle time. They didn't getthat for me. Wow at all. My Dad took me fishing, zero, O the Andy Groupo showor something no. I don't know so what else I want to keep going o?What do you ban an leg? Are you a good? Are you good at wrapping an it O,really bad at rapping, but you would he to o very old schoolbad rapper yeah bwrapping is moved ar beyond my ability,son. I could do the early stuff that came out that that I got into that,because I was a DJ in high school, and so I was not only the school Dj for myhigh school and thus you know often was involved in hosting the dances andthings, but I got asked around to do different things and during that era,in n th s, the first rap songs went mad streams when you're a DJ sitting indances. You listen to songs over and over again, and you can memorize them,and so that's kind of how I got e a Dja school live league. Oh you Gor to hearlivelay oudid. You always have a good voice for Radiin Ye, its IALL,my mom's fault yeah. I got it from mom yeah. Can You do? Can you give us righthere? Give us a little Dj leg, voice, we'd start off in the morning,something like this good morning from the top biill, thebottom building and inside the doormark authorize personnel. Only this is wghs.That sounds pretty good. Did your mom always say you had anoutside voice? Yes, I always got caught in class when I was talking in the backof the classroom. You know. Miss Finley in third grade always knew that it wasme in the back of the classroom. It was put its Acol Ra creatour voice. That at is true, that's the flit sideof it. You know, I told my wife, I said now. Look little old ladies, are goingto come up to meet the door of the church and they're going to tell mewhat a great creature I am understand it. What that means is they can hear me.That's true means absolutely nothing about the puality of what I'm doing. Itsimply means that they can hear me so all right. We Av about five minutes.Tess, I'm going to do some some lightning round, and I know it's hard to think offavorites or a favorite. What's a favorite hymn of Ligan Duncan how sweet the name of Jesus sounds andLeag is a good singer, that's nothing could have said. People may not know oagain, because my mom was the Qire director. I had no choice but the sing.So from the time I was a little kid, I was singing with mom and have grown upin Qhoire, a D and- and I and I love love to sing hims and soles. Youremember there's a video of this somewhere, you and I were in SouthAfrica. We did that that T forgtour here several years ago we were headedto the airport, it was me and you and Bob Coflin was in the car and two orthree other, and what were we singing? We were all singing something and Bobtook a video of it to it was parts, and I it was it was good. It was. I mean Ithought we were good. Adthout we were Aboyai was reated its good yeah readyto go. You took the barratone, take the highteer okay. What's your favorite islike picking your favorite chibd? What's your favorite systematictheology you're on the desert island,... only get one of them, but you canbring all the values so hard. That is really hard. You know I still like togive students berkeoff just because okay, you don't have timeto read for volumes of bobbing. So you're going to have berkoff plagiarizethe important points for you, ind Tren, so nobody realized until Bob Tink wasfrands, Lik English right that he basicall wonderfully played herand. Soyou know it's a good introductory systematic still and it's probably thebeen the one that I have assigned more often than any or other one, but Ireally love Turret and then I know you did well. That's Siuitan in tot O bealovwhole electic Teoloy, probably the one. If you made me, take one I'dtaking o, have all threee volumes, so very good. All right, whatwas, thefavorite book you preache from as Pastor sermonceries, you really loved I loved going through first ind, secondPesalonians, because I don't think I'd ever realized how pastoral they are.You know you talk about the pastoral epistles first and second comnobe intitus that I realized first and second Tesolonians are just as pastoral asthose to letters and really really important for the living in theChristian life. So that kind of caught me by surprise how much I enjoyedpreaching to those boots. No one will remember here. That was the firstsermon series. I did when I came here. I tdidn't go throu the hole books. Idid five or six weeks on what Paul was thankful for, and Ilooked at his prayers or first a second Phesimonians an what he was thankfulfor and read that back what sort of church do we want to be so yeah, it'svery pastoral. What about your favorite musical artist? Give us a Christian oneand a Nonchristian Ihave, always loved Earthwin in fire as a nonchirsan musical art, althougfilled by Liv with a Christian okay, even though there e kind of minduss Afan earth wind and fire song? Oh My boogy Wonderlan your mind us of whenI've heard of September, okay yeah after the love is gone all right. Thisis a little bit before my. It is before you EA. You were in diapers, yeah, I'veheard of them, and it's like the the Stoykaat like the elementary Principaleof the earth or Weni fire. So I love. I love the elements. EWF, let's see Ihavit now Frish, CristianYeah. I love. I love coral music more than I likeContemporary Christian music. So, for for sacred coral music, you know I love, I love BA and love to listen tobackarales and Oratorios, and things of that to give afavorite piece you saying in he choir I, I love the coral finale of moler's. SecondSympany, the resurrection sympony, my favorite movement in all sacred coralmusic is the Denalis Flisis, its tegrass in th,the second movement of TAT'Sa, our Fai broms, ienjoycus requiem. So all frest Ol fleshes grass, it's it's apowerful, powerful meditation on death and Resurrection, and it's aProtestant requiem and that's o yea, just a plug for that Nathan willappreciate whatever he is, but there is you Kno Kinmeier sulk aboutfine culture and folk culture and both have their place in sort of folk,Cultureig, migh call popular cultures or easily accessible n order. Thoy havetraining to you get it. You listen to it first time you hear it on the radiothe first time somebody sings it in church. You think I got that that's agood melody, and by and large that's... know, that's what you're going todo with the congregation singing you. There is something that I hope is willnot be lost on the church, because there is this rich tradition of richcoral music and it takes something to to appreciate it to understand. What'sgoing on to, but those those broms were. I told Nathan SOM preaching throughgenesis that I love for our choir to do. Erin copland has a as a piece in thebeginning, which is a wonderful fifteen minute. Coral, just the exact wordsfrom the king, James and Jenesis, wanted the genesis to and there's someof these pieces that are really moving, even though sometimes not likeBoh was a serious Christian, sometimes they're, not Chris likes at all rap PumWilgiams, who is not arious Christian, but his arrangement of Sol ninty in themiles cupberdal version of Lord Thou has been ou refuge in onegeneration to another before the mountains were brought for. Whoever theworld birth in the world were made. That is an unbelievably moving piecewritten by an unbelievable favorite movie. favorit movie, that's hard. whatwhat was the movie recent was ne thousand nine hundred andseventeen yeah. I did not slem a BA powarded. Yes, t single footagofunbelieacharesy fire love, chariots and virots, so iside in Scotland, and soit's the opening scene of Ceriots Pire. Ifyou remember they're running down the beach with Ben Jealous playing in thebackground and at the bottom of the screen, is they run up along the building, Awron the beach?And then you see a building in the background it says somewhere in thesouth of England, so I'm in a I'm in a Scottish eater and the wher they. I wy because they're runningacross the beach in Sint, Andrew Scrikra and they're, coming up on theold course and the clubhouse in sint Andrews, and it says somewhere in thesouth of England, so the Scotts well deserves. Do you have a favorite TV? Do you doyou watch TV beside sports? Do you bing watch anything watching the Manda Lord?I am watching the Mandalorian and my kids kind of clew me in on whata things.I need to watch and I mean I love Sherlock Holmes. The BBC Shirick HolmesWuld Benedict, come fo cumber batch and I watch that whenever they come outwith those some things like that favorite part of the DCO, don't you have somebidg eliminary,principleawesome, yeah they're, absolutely the best preliminary PRESCIYeh you can readyo anywhere Leggan. We are very indebted to you forgiving us your time. Thank you for being with us. Lat's take lick againfor is a AR. You can see why I like tog theinterviews, because I cun ask just whatever fun or deed question. I wantall right, I'm going to close us in prayer and we're going to try to bemindful of laks time, not only for the game, but he's we got him working hardand is got to get back to the hotel and get some rest and preach for us threetimes tomorrow. So let's pray Father and heaven were grateful for ourbrother and friend ND pray. Your blessing upon his work is leadershipthat so many of us feel and appreciate, and we pray now that you give us graceas we return home and prepare our Hearts for Lords Day tomorrow. Most ofus for worship here at Christ, covenent or for others, as they may be in otherchurches in the area, or perhaps other churches wherever they are. We praythat you would less than be with all the preachers who are preparing heartin mind to bring a good word from the scriptures tomorrow we ask in ChristnaE men, you've been listening to life...

...and books and everything hope youenjoyed the conversation with leg and hope. You will join US next week ascalling adjust in our back and we interviewe Carl Treman on his new bookuntil then, or if I god enjoy him forever and read a good book.

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