Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode 3 · 1 year ago

Season 1: Episode 2

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Originally released on April 27th, 2020, this is episode 2 of the first season of 'Life and Books and Everything,' with Kevin DeYoung, Collin Hansen, and Justin Taylor.

This is life and books and everythinghosted by Kevendy Yun, Justontaylor and Colin Hansonmwelcome back lad to haveyou with us for week. Two of who knows how many on Ar podcast I'joined with Justin Taylor and Callin Hansen good tohave you guys back on our podcast, which is called life and books, andeverything we're going to talk about one of those three things: Ore, all you're, so good with with h names, Imean e you're famally, paying me back after. I named your your book, it'strue, it's true! No I've been I've been trying to find an excuse to use thistitle from acx Seventeen, which I've loved and uh, so we're just subbing outbreath for books, because I think that's accurate of things we love andthings we like to talk about, but h finally found an excuse with you guys.Well, thanks. I think it works. We are going to talk about some corona virusstuff and some books stuff, but before we get there, I'm wondering all of us are like sports. I was going to say intosports, but that could give the allusion that we are great athletes as just in put on facebook. We we havefaces for podcast, alsothey, have athletic prowess for it as well. Jistbe realistic, though here Kevin, only one of us is doing triathelon. Well, Ididn't want to go here, but I have Ben Not Justinn. I have been running oftenin this quorantine. What else am I going to do, but sports so have you guys been watching the lastdance, the Jordan documentary and here here's my little thirty second rant onthat everybody's, a Jordan Fan, I'm a real bullfan. I was born in Chicago Irooted. I grew up in Michigan. I hated the bad boys. I had to suffer throughlots of ignominious defeats and when they finally broke through in one Istill have it somewhere in in the attic. I had a brilliant sure, like only ajunior high school student would wear. That said, had the Bulls logo and, assaid, how do you like us now? Andit was epic, as I wore that to bandclass in middle school. Carrying my French horn. Don't mess with me. DidGeorge Guy Ay Rl Horn? Yes, I did. I played the Frek trum on for me, Justin,I'm thinking, O percussion. You guys can guess which a Bigtram? No?U Trombone, barrizone something low low brea. If it were percussion Ito'd haveto be Bas. Drumer Timpany, one of the two all wrong: the Tuba Wel Theoer,teer N, just assumed it was yeah, MD and t. It was normally designs so thatyou would have when at home for practice and one at school, but theyonly had one. So I had to carry from Lincoln Elementary School back home tomy house, a very large Tuba, which even it's not that heavy, but it's veryawkward to carry down the street so and it sounds absolutely horrible.Ancompeter, like it's solo in your room, I asure it Doesi. You didn't even haveveggietails to sort of myou know my brother's never going to listen to this.I can tell this story. He played the trombone and he had a one of those coolsort of like not quite a varsity jacket but like a a school windbreaker sort ofin had his name, and then it had a marching band on the back and on thefront it had his his instruments, so it said Peter and right underneath it saidtrombone, so all through high school, he was Peter Trombone. That's that'swhat you're looking for to make it...

...through high school back to the Bulls? Okay, the Bulls: WHYDO PEOPLE WH? What's IT with Jordan? I mean this was the highest the highestrated documentary. Now, okay, we understand the times. There's no sportson, and I mean my son- is telling me Hey dad look. The women's HandballChampionship is on from last year hate the Berlin marathon from twenty eight.That really happened a Berlin marathon from twentyd eighteen. Should I hitrecord? Of course you should okay, so the competition's down. But what is itabout Jordan? and Are you guys, legit, Jordan fans? I am Yep, I'm with Kevin, and you really, you rooted for Hem growingup absolutely watched every game that I could it's just such a transcendentfigure w. What I think's really interesting watching the footage now isthat he seems no less transcendent goingback thirty years in time. Maybe it's notthirty years, but it seems like most figures that youwatch the old reels and they just seem like they diminish overtime like Oh,that guy playing today, he would just get totally smoked. You Go back and youlook at Jordan and I'm kind of glad for a new generation to see this in Um in full and in context, because it'sone thing to see some great dunk from him or some great fadeaway shot, but tosee him actually in the contexts of the Games and in the contects of NinetiesBasketball Um. I think somebody who's just seen like some dunk footage from him and then comparehim to Lebran or others who we get to see in contexts in in the contact of afull game, and with this competition Jordan has aged pretty well, I think interms of the footage- and he didn't have the he didn't really have the superstars.With him I mean brodmint and Pitpol were great players but they're all kindof from like mid America colleges and they weren't superstars. Apart from him,so it was almost like this. This MIS fit a crew that gets assembled andtollyco coach, hellool Righti thought you were going to say you Wer, sayingJordan well, but I sai, but not as well as his mother, apparent Wa, H, Ike. Shesit up as that Laf, an ten footage taken twenty years ago. I have no idea,I mean obviously of his dad with the tragic end Rin there, but I I had thesame thoughts like wow. That's amazing, I'm not a not a Jordan! Well, I'm not a bulls fan,but I will say I am a Birmingham Barons Fan. So that makes me a Jordan Fan. Inthat sense, no, I was a penny Hardaway skilonil Tan, so Nick Anderson broke myheart now, while Jordan was down here in Birmingham playing baseball, but Imean, I think, H, we're in a period of quarantine. Youknow stay at home or whatever, where we're seeking some sort of comfort, andI mean Brettmccrakan, who does arts and culture for us at TGC, a talkd abouthow he's listening to a bunch of nineties music right now and he's aboutour age a little bit younger and I'd noticed Huh I've been listening to thewallflowers lately like. Why am I listening to Jacob Dillen all of asudden? Why am I reaching back to Hoodie and the blowfish that was he firUrseband Tha? I knew F Tho three you just mentioned here. You go so well a lot of people,don't remember the Wallflowers, but they were great short lived but um just reaching backto something, that's familiar, something that that that bringspositive endorpins and I think, that's probably something to do at least thatdocumentary. But I remember seeing our friend met. SMETHERS say right away:Early on in the Lockdown: Esp N bring this documentary. U O rush it to, and America America cried out for it andesbn delivered and Um and we're all...

...benefiting from it and gives ussomethin t look forward to I mean W we're coming off the draft, and I justI was it was texting or you know talking with a friend last night lateinto the night about the draft, and I realized this was like a little oasisof normalsy mhm of what my life used to be like and hopefully we'll be again,but I don't know when that's how it felt to me at least you just feltsomething was normal again when they booed Roger Gadel. That was fin. I didappreciate the way he at least owns it. The country is, U Yeah, staying with sports for a minute. Howdo you guys assess- and I guess it could go either way, but witheverything shut down, I've heard some people say this really shows the Lordis stripping away our our idolatry and how many of us just were living forsports. I saw one person to eet at one point.Apparently, the only things I ever did for fun were go to restaurants shop andtouch my face and H. I can't do any of those so there's one sort of this showshow much of an idolatry we've made of sports that we're all you know, but memissing it so much and it provides for a lot of us, the rhythm of what I haveto look forward to this weekend and what's coming up and the seasons aremarked by sports. So I'll, let you weigh in if, if you wantto go the idolatry route, but I just pushed back a little bit and- and I I understandI'm saying this 'cause- I am a sports fan, and so I can't claim to beunbiased, but I I see it as a lot of common grace, good and, of course,there's idolatry huge amounts of it know. We see that every time weespecially if you live in the south and you come to college football season,but I think the it's something that people can relatively peacefully come together.Can Watch can root for can cheer about and I think sometimes we canhyperspiritualize h the idolatry spiritual adultery kind of conversationso that we're not allowed to have anything that we like uh, just just oneanecdote here and then I'll. Let you guys chime in, but you may have heardthis line from Piper, which I think is a very good line. I've used it in mysermons number of times and it it really is a powerful point. He will say,and I've used it if you could be in heaven with all thechocolate you want all the food, none of the pounds. You know sex sports,everything and Jesus. Isn't there do you still want to be there? No andI've talked to John About. I I think it's a great question to really helppeople see hm. Why am I into Jesus and at the same time I want to say when the Bible talks about all theCovenant blessings th, they don't imagine them, and I knowthis is not what Piper was imagining either, but they don't imagine them as in some hermetically sealed space youand God sitting there. I mean it's, you have your own vine and your own figtree and there's no more tears and there's a Lach garden that Goddescribes his covenent blessings in terms that we can understand of mmaterial prosperity, not in te hear and now, but in the life to come, and so I just Iwant to make sure that we're not defacto Buddhists who act like the wayto really have peace in this world is to do away with cravings do away withdesires when Jesus seems to say yeah. I can give those to you even better, so disagree with me or give the other side. How do you thinkof this? Is this showing us our our...

...idols or just taking away gifts that weshould have been more thankful for you go first, just into also disagreewith Pipergo, not disagreeing just saying whenever I use that line, I useit in people in the congeration I can tell there I mean that hits them and it should,and then I'm quick to say and yet B H. I give a little Cava, andI've talked to John about that. I don't think he disagrees yeah and it's one thing to agree or disagree sort of in theory andthen it's another thing kind of s, inpractice and in in reality, is, as you kind of watch, your own heartand life and time, and that sort of thing. So I I think I agree com witheverything that you're saying there Um, I think, we'd all agree like it. Itcertainly can be an idolatry and not just theoretically, but for many peopleit is uh. Almost by definition. Idologry I meanwhen you're emotions and sense of spiritual beingare so tied up with the performance of eighteen nineteen twenty year oldathletes and a you find incredible amounts of anger. Somebody who's made adecision unfourth in one that you would disagree with Um. It really can easily become imbalanced,and yet I think, along lines of what you were saying. If you go to the otherextreme and just say, godliness is resfraining from any form of communalactivity. That is not Jesus centered. I think there's a way that we can bringand should bring a Jesus shaped piaty towards watchingsports, but Um Kevin you and I have only been to I think, to professional games together.One White Sox cubs game. If I remember correctly, Yeh one an Nebraska Michigangame and we were both on opposite sides: ther. It was a thrilling, Nebraska comeback Um and we had left the game early and watched it didn't win. MichiganState one M came back like reader round on the fourth quarter and and couldhavetied the game H. I was really sad that night going tabed at your house, but Ithink it's the sort of thing like if they had lingered on like the next day.I'm just kind of I can't get out of a funk because Nebraska lost that gameand it lingers on. I just think we need to be asking ourselves that question of regularly is this: getting out ofproportion are my affections H in proportion of such a way that that Iget so excited and energized by college football that I never really do aboutcorporate worsipor, about reading my Bible and about praying and the thingsof the Lord, so I agree it's kind of a both end. I think it's very easy to gooff on letting the pendulum swing too far to either direction Um. I do think, there's a danger in sayingyeah. It's a both and and therefore I'm never going to ask myself any hardquestions about whether I I ihe pefalling into my dollar trail. I hope my kids grow up, loving sports.I Lo hope they love playing sports. That's one angle that we haven't quitelooked at here of the idolatry of pursuing that athletic glory yourselfand Um. I just was never good enough to be able to have to worry about thatterribly much. God was kind and that in that regard, but I hope my kids grow upand love sports in part because Evin it's one of those common graces I'veI've noticed that it's almost just like there's somethingmissing. Now that I would love to be sharing with my son,we'd love to be. I was supposed to be,...

...has coach for his little league team,which of course didn't happen. Um would be lovin watching royals games with himright now and haven't been able to do that, and it makes me sad more sad thanit makes him he's five. So it's not that big of of a deal, but I hope weare able to share that in the future, and I don't generally cheer for thesame teams as my own dad 'cause. I for some reason decided I wanted to rebelin that way. It's a lot less fun. That way. I wish my dad and I were alwayscheering for the same teams and could share that income and same with myuncles and all Thi Achar girl, like I outh Dakota warriors or that well, ETAare world palancourse. We are both Ot Toco, O State Jack, rabbits fans, anRos Western wildcats fans, but the key distinction is he's a big Menesotatwins fan and, of course, I went otherwise to the royals and also theVikings and basically the Minnesota teams there, but h so WSO. I hope Ihope they care about sports, but I hope they care little less than I do or didat one point Um. I think I ow Iowa quarterback Ricki stanzy in apology, soricky you're out there listening now. I said some pretty bad things about you.Well watching northwestern tefeat you when you were undefeated and Um Yeah. Ijust I've got some regrets related to some things that I've thought and I'vefelt and also have said about that which I think are in keeping with Umsort of the fruit of idolatry there as well- and I know Kevin You ere gloatingat the time, but I've never seen such a wide scale repentance of idolatry thanliving on the north side of Chicago in two thousand and three that was prettyremarkable. There Bartman brought a lot of people and the rest ofthe cubs run a lot of repentance to a lot of Christian friends of mine. Thenwho had a lot of hopes invested in the cubs and, of course you know when youlose that painfully it's pretty brutal but yeah. So I hope it's a good thing,but it clearly goes wrong for me personally. Well, I hope that we can goback to sports from time to time, because I think it's really important it's it'ssomething that most I'll say a whole lot of Americans hole lot of peoplearound the world care about and there's a way to care about it in a way thathonors gone in a way that dishonors him, and so I appreciate you guyschallenging me on that and being willing to talk about it. But let'stalk a little bit about Corona virus. Okay, there was an article, it wasn'twidely read and it wasn't a major pece, but in a leading evangelical,periodical and website and had something like the title, you know isCorona Virus God's judgment and it was just a short peace. But the answer wasclearly no. This is not God's judgment and I think that's certainly a defensible position, but here's where I want to dabble in perhaps danger just a bit. I don't know if this is God's judgment upon theworld. I certainly would not say pastorally.You Got Corona virus, it's a judgment upon you, but that's not how God'speople understood judgements. They understood them off in groups and nations. So I'm I I understand the patoraldilemma, but I think we are too quick to pass by this category that God mightbe judging us in some way, and we've talked outside of this podcast aboutthe book God's judgments by Stepen Keeler. Did you say this is GarisonKular's brother? It is YEP. I did not know thet. It makes CNS PhD Universityof Minnesota, God's judgment's,...

...interpreting history and the Christianfaith. It's a it's a serious book. It's an academic book by a train historianand Mark Nol writes the forward and Margnole basically says you haven'tquite convinced me but you've sure. Given me a lot to think about, and allof us hade been trained as in in of academic historiography indifferent ways, and so we know that this is off limits. You can't do generally respectable history and say the cause here. Is God you canunderstand that as a Christian, but you sort of bracket. That and that'sanother discussion. Is that wise? I think it it can be appropriate to dothat. But Keeler is arguing. No, we see in the new in the old testant and thenetestament that God judges, nations and while I agree with his basic argumentthat we shouldn't be quick to dismiss current events as God's judgment, theproblem always is- and I I find the same thing in his book when he gets toit. You think well, I'm not so sure, that's convincing. So he has whatspecific judgment nine eleven was and throughout history, the burning of theWhite House by the British, what judgment that was and then you have toscratch your head and say Mi think you could probably make six or sevenarguments. So I don't, I would not want to claim. I know why God might be judging us, but Iwould say this from Church history. It is. It is absolutely the case that if wewere back two centuries, maybe even a century anda half, certainly longer than that, we would be having many many leadingpastors and preachers preaching sermons about how this plague is God's judgment.Just to give you one example: All roads lead to John Witherspoon. This is froma fast day sermon in Scotland in seventeen. Fifty eight part of thecontext is the seven years war known as the French and Indian war in t e NorthAmerica, but it really was UH someways, the first World War. I mean it involvedall of these major powers in Europe, and I won't read all this, but he sayscoming to the end of his sermon and applying these different scripturepassages. He says we have of late suffered under a variety of publicstrokes. We have not only had for some time past repeated threatenings ofscarcity and dearth, but vast multitudes have been afflicted withfamine, which is one of God's sord judgements. H. Has this not been the providence of Godsensibly frowning upon us and we have visibly frustrated, he has frustratedalmost every one of our attempts. We have turned our backs: Faint heartedbefore our enemies and almost every encounter the greater and moreformidable oure preparations for enterprise, the more pitiful the issue,the more shameful our defeat and disappointment. He has obstructed ourtrade and we have loss of territory, loss of honor, expense of treasure andon and on he goes for pages. Clearly d. This would not have beencontroversial. You saink the reason we're losing this war. The reason wehave famine, the reason we're hungry God's, judging us and we're notlistening, we're not really repenting. So why is it that we seem- and I I've ambivalence here- I admit-but why is it that this seems to be a category for almost no one, as wereflect on the current predicament yeah? I think you're totally right interms of the main stream historical guild and not just talking about the secular historians, but Christianmainstream historians, the overtun window. You know the the range ofacceptable options that can be proposed. has so narrowed that it's almost noteven possible for debate? Keeler is one of the few who's written on itand he is not. He doesn't have a major...

...teaching post, Um isn't doing a ton ofpublishing even with mainstream presses so um. It is a very minority view D, DavidBebington Um. I don't recall if yous actually talke about godg judgments perse, but in terms of providentialism, which is the broader category thatyou're talking about you know, can we say: Leave USSIE Godge judgment. Can wesay that God did this or that got a sovereign over this or that he was thecause of this? Even Christian histoian seemed to on the focus almost entirelyon secondary causation m. So I do think it's problematic hthat it's not even sort of up for debate and is often times in books onthe topic dismissed in a paragraph or two, and I think some of the dismissalshave have legitimate h points or there's legitimate arguments toconsider. Y Carl Treaman says that if I ask you why the the planes hit the Twin Towers- and you say God'sProvidence- you may have said something theologically true, but you're- notactually telling me much. It's like saying that the towers fell because ofgravity Um interesting point legitimate point, but historians tend to be morecaught up in in secondary causations D, something that can be analyzed anddebated. So I think that I'm with you Kevin in it seems incontrovertible tome that God would still issue judgments and yet ore confidence or certaintyabout specifics in terms of what God is is actually doing through it or why hehas done it. Uh become a little murcere. I suppose one h biblical parallel would be that we wehave biblical judgments in redemptive history, and then we have Godauthoritatively. Interpreting those judgements h. We don't have himauthoritytatively, interpreting every natural phenomenon that took placeoutside of the redemptive historical story line. So if there is someearthquake in Asia in a thousand BC, is that a judgmentfrom God? We don't have his authoritative interpretation of what hewas doing, why he was doing it, but I do think we have basic biblicalprinciples of Jesus, saying: Hey that tower fell overthere. Let's not analyze. Wyat fell, let'sanalyze, what your response is to this phenomenon and it's always a call torepentance. It's always calld' return to Christ. It's always a call toexamine our sin and it's always a cold to walk and integrity, knok walk in thelight and Um. So yes, I agree with everything I thinkyou're saying and it's a really interesting discussion, I'm thr and oneof the things. Historically, I think you see in these pronouncements from anearlier century is they they tend to focus on repenting of the Church's sins.Now, to be fair, you know Scotland was a Christian nation and so repenting atthe nation opending. The church is the same thing, but where we see mischiefs intentional or not in our ownday is saying. Okay, this is God's judgment and it's it's conveniently ajudgment on none of the things I do none of the people I'm with, but ithappens to be a judgment against all the things that I already had beenspeaking against, and it's that famous s US Lees Essay.The danger of national repentance where you are are claiming to repent butyou're, actually repenting of the sins of a whole lot of other people, you'renot including yourself in it, and I think they did more of a a Maeocopa in some of thesetraditional fast sermons to say we have not called upon the Lord. We haveneglected prayer. We have neglected the things of God, rather than justpointing the fingers at a different...

...class of people or different type ofpeople doing sins that we're not doing calling. You read history as much rmore than either of us. How do you make sense to this anm working on a book right now, andactually we were talking this morning with my coauthor about it and we weretrying to work as your O al here, calling Sarah Ecoof Zastrau at an tgcsbeen workig with me all the way back to about two thousand and four atChristinity today, but a great Dutch dam. It is well she's, a great Dutchwoman, all she's a she's, a thoroughly thoroughly Dutch Um and uh one of the one of the questions that wewere talking about today is we we we went back to nine eleven and you guysremember what the Western interpretation was of,why the towers were attacked nine eleven. Why do they hate US yeah? Whydo they hate us? What what do you guys remember from them fee, like Professor Hanson, is realyputting us on the Swa? I want to make sure I mean I have my owninterpretation, but I'm interested to know what you guys think of wh. Iremember reading lots on that and you give respons to from the right in theleft, though, that question why they hate US tended to be more of a questionasked on the left and it would often be accompanied withno small amounts of American self recriminations wow. Theyhate us because of or debauchery that might be more on the right. They theyhate us, because we have n treated immigrants well or wethey hate us because of our anti muscle rhetoric. They hate us because we'rewarmongers and then others, maybe more the writer.They hate us because we've been successful because of our freedomsbecause of our wealth. Again, I think they tended to beconveniently ethey hate us for things that I already dislike in other people.That's my point, H, Justin, anything to add to that from your interpretation tothat no other than the Um Jerry follwelcomments that you know he went on Vet Robers in and it's all because of thegazs and RTHAT's why this happened right? Well, you guys remember what othe replacements? What's the replacement for the Twin Towers, calld, the Freedom Tower right. So it seemsthat from what I can recall when I remember the kind of dominant view- andit wasn't the only view- U The dominant view was they hate us because they hate ourfreedoms, they attacked our freedoms. They they hate that George t Bush wasvery explicit and built exactly so so so probably more than anybody else.President Bush was responsible and nobody else had a similar kind ofplatform to be able to shape that response. Okay, what evidence do we have that that wasever true? I could just be missing something, butit was almost like that was just assumed so Kevin to your point. Itseems that the interpretation of events seems to tell us a lot more aboutourself than it does about God, and that's what makes me concernedabout it and that's what makes me fairly wary of making those conclusions,and so I completely agree when it comes to all of the history, and there wassome discussion recently about this online of somebody saying hey: why areyou talking about God in judgment just go to Jesus in the Gospels? It's likeWel. You got some major canonical issues there, along with a lot of otherthings. I mean, what do you do you take the entire book of Geramina and youjust toss it out. I mean not just Dur. Am I, but everywhere that tweat you'rethinking of was Anualy, responding to asage, I think from first currentiansthat talks about sickness and judgment...

...and the the respondit was just go toJesus who cast out demons and that's all bad stuff. So it's like well whatabout Paul Tat's, not just old, Testerso nintestment right no, like Isaid, there's no end to the problems there, and so the way I kinda come down on it is thatI want to use history to bring some accountability to us and, Ithink, that's necessary on this issue. We are at of step with the dominanthistorical response of Christians for all time and I think we're at of stepwith the Basic Biblical response Um. So I agree with that, both individuallyand corporately. I would also say that if we're going to be talkingindividually or corporately, I don't think we're going to run out anytimesoon of perfectly legitimate reasons that God would want to judge us. So I don't have any problems on thatfront either. where I have. The issue is where Justintalked about the? Where is God's authoritative interpretation thereright yeah right, so that's the danger, an that's my ambivalence and that's whyI appreciate what Stephen Killer was trying to do. WELLLET's turn a cornerhere and since this is at least apart a podcast about books, let's talk aboutbooks, H, several questions, here's maybe a fun one to start, and just soour esteemed lister listners understand. We do not talk about these subjectsbeforehand. I have a list and I'm keeping. Now I have twenty fourquestions on here and we get to three or four of them each time, but I don'ttell juster Colli, it's just sort of a fun grab bag for them. I like it thatway, yeah, but here's here's a fun question. Okay, people might think youguys are talking about books and all these books. You read y AH OKA W we alllike to read, but we get to talk about the books that we've read. That's whatwe're talking about. We don't read everything, so I want to know what area book or three or ten or authors that you have not read. Now, that's aninfinite list. Almost what I mean is not oh. I never read Anna Corinina,which has got. I haven't, read it either, but it's often the answer onfor the jeopardy question. I mean in our circles you're with you're, withour friends you're with these Christian leaders and they're, throwing out thesebooks and you nod like Yeah Yeah I', I'm with you and really you've. Neveryou've never read it. Since I knew I was going to ask that I got a a coupleof suggestions or answers for me. The First Collin probably knows about andwill make him disappointed. I tried reading windelberry for noJabercrow, for I think a chapter I'm not anti window berry. I don't e onechapter before giving up yeah. I know I know I know also hate Marilyn Robinson.That was my second one. I knew it that was my second one and knew it a notbecause they go together. It's because it's there's too many stylisticsimilarities. Yeah. I don't know so. People talk about it and I know I feellike I'm, not a real thinky person. I haven't read the whole Mariland Robinson Ouhoi, wherever yousay that French word and I haven't done the whol Ivan Mason reads: Guilliatevery week I know so those two come to mind that when people talk about, Ijust say yeah, that's really deep. Oh man and I just no h hadn't doneanything for me. Also, don't read any Russian literature.Is that also true or Yap orwhat? Are you like orsused yeah? I just I haven'tread you know billy bud either or massive American pieces of Americanliterature, so Justin little known secret, youactually don't read books, you just publish them and blog about them. Soeasy question, for you.

Ah I'd say probably my top three wouldbe that people would be surprised about, knowing God by Packer Wha. Well, hepurse desiring God. Okay. Now this way, I even know it t: Okay Oka. We realizewhat's happened here. Ok, you know, one that comes to mind isOliv. Oliver o'donovans work, I've actually kurchased it Um. Lo Good atrjisting books better thanrepiyeahhopefully. My life does not listen to the PO Drass ever now. Sheknows I'm recording thistik after I think odon of adit would be one thata lot of people talk about and you sound intelligent. If you have read himand I have purchased him, but I have not yet made my way through it and andwould like to inilittle bit into what e would do, but he'd be one that comecold, that that's. That was like saying then my biggest weakness is that I worktoo hard yeah. I know holed away Solsanitsin, yet ex I've, just only three fourths of theway through Gulagakapelaga, ok, Co. Give us a better answer like Poma Rede,chronicles Arniathis. Is You oh my right? This is this is like the gameshow. I always knew that no one would ever invite me to be on and then Ididn't ever want to participate an so mine's way worse than yours, Kevin Um.I don't read much CS Lewis or Charles purgeon and I think it's. I think it's becausewhat I said last week I am a foolish snob and basically it's just becausehere her for so reveryone agrees on this, we're all united, not just booingRoder Gadal, but I'm a foolish snob um I mean I have read: I've read like Mparts of a problem: Ifh Pain, Um. I have read the cronicals of Narnianseries, but I was in third grade. So by the way you mean watch the movies. I actually did read those Um, oh man.This is even worse. No talking, never even cracked, a book that his Tokins Mso and same thing. Harry Potter, I mean that', never read any of it. have noclue what anybody's talking about on that. So but the main issue is therewith with Lewis and purgeon I mean I've got my spurgeon volumes Um. I have readsome of Lewis's lectures and they are great. None of this has anything to do.I mean I guess I may be me foolish here, but at least in a SNOB, but at least Istill appreciate what I haven't read. Unlike you, Kevin Um windomarry in Maryland, Robinson by theway M. my wife is with you on Marilyn Robinson, can't stand it but loveswindow Berry. So I'm not sure what the difference is the I I do think maybe this would be helpful to discuss. I think that fiction takes a long timeto get into, and maybe maybe it's always been that way. Maybe it's justthat way for me. Maybe it's that way I feel like. I have to enter that worldand sometimes, if I, if, if it's a long novel thousand pages, seven or pagesinzl like it, takes me two hundred threehundred pages, we're still meatingpeople NTO it yeah. So I I don't think I mean. Maybe you would still hate itKevin. If you kept going, I hate Idin said: Hey thit UST. Well, I usually afiction book. I usually say I'm going to give it fifty pages. Maybe I need togive it more. I just I just don't think. That's the way fiction's written, soI'm just not sure it works that way cause with non siction, and this is megood, sigent non fiction. You got payoff on the first five pages caus it I exacagood, not evis Boer the prieses there.

You got in in fact a lot of nonfictionbooks. You can read the introduction and yougot the the main gist enough to talk about it and footnote it in adisportation where fiction books don't work that way, but it's a great segaybecause none of us are reading fiction like weread nonfiction nor, as we probably you know, want to, or at least feel like weought to but give give me some fiction books that you've really enjoyed andhere's some qualifications. You can't go back into high school yeah, youcan't say ohthe merchant ofvens is really powerful. Whe. When I was inhigh school, my honors English class, we had to read eight hundred pages offree reading in American literature. I was like. I don't want to be going tothe library and finding all these books. I just look for the biggest book. Icould that was eight hundred pages, the collect tha, the complete works ofEdralinpo. It was a dark semester and nothing but Adgaran Po, which isactually kind of fun. So you can't do that. You can't mention Tolkin, youcan't mention Leuis. You can't even do antrew Peterson stuff, okay, so I'mjust setting those aside. They don't have to be Christian authors WHA. Whatare some fiction books in the last ten years, even that you've read thatyou benefited from either just for enjoyment or more aesthetic reasons, crickets Justou Wan to go first, I knewI was going to ask at. I can go first, I just always so F, okay, I'll jump inain, so CN H. Well, first of all, I've I've read almost all the jeeves inwooster I mean PG woodhouse is I mean he really is brilliant and funny and h.You know the the Hue Wha, the Lauri Helori and Stephen Fry did episodes ofit, but like everything, the book is just a thousand times better, eventhough those are clever so just for escapist literature in the use of theEnglish language and sort of set in a High Society of England in the earlierpart of the twentieth century. Just really funny m a book that I had heardabout for a long time than I finally read and then I started having otherpeople read it and they said I didn't really get into that, but was m thebook of the Duncow by Walter Winkrin. You know kind of an animal sable, but Ireally I don't know I don't even have a dog, but the dog is a hero in there ando want to spoil it for you. But I've found that to be a fascinating reed. Ireally enjoyed reading that. I got others rattling through my brain justin Colin. What about you fiction books just give two or three for me. I haven't been reading a lot offiction in terms of on the page, but have been doing more fiction throughaudible, so John Williams, stoner somebody mentioned that they thoughtthat was the great American novel, and so I listened to that an it's aboutstoners. It is about a man named Stoner, Lo Ish Professorr, Hay early twentieth century from a MissouriFarm and becomes a professor and is with you know. I don't know if youguy feel like this with fiction, there's a lot of times. It contains things of sexual nature here and there thatmake some way p. When you recommend it, you have to do lit with a little bit of a Cavat, and I don't Awas, remember what you know ifyou're talking about going back last ten years, Charles Portisis, True Grit,I think that's one that is just a beautiful audio book, because it's red in thenarrator's voice, um dog of the south...

...by Charls Portis, is another one. I'verecently been doing, and I've picked up some books from that kind of highschool English ate the English era and returned to them. Like Johnsteinbek ofmice and men, um a old man in the sea and to listen tothem, what different narration has been really o fun to do? U, the more recentone. I don't tend to lake a fantasy sort of stuff, maybe station elevenisn't fantasy an postpactalyptic genre, whatever the right category is butlisten to that and enjoyed it. Galin yeah, I feel like I'm going to bejustintailor going through the crossway book catalogue here, Um. We need to. I mean if this S, if thispodcast goes past like four or five episodes we're going to have to comeback to this topic, so I am unashamedly. I read a lot of fiction and uh, so Ilike it, I'm not always good at reading it, but I read a lot of it and also I've just learned that with myfiction, though, I have to issue warnings when I talk about it, becauseunless you want to spend a thousand pages in medieval Scaninavia, maybedon't listen to my recommendations, Christa Lale's daughter, exactlyexactly mnset, so I gr I mean generally I've gotten goodfeedback from other people who liked it. I really appreciated that one. It wouldbe especially a good m pandemic. Reed spoiler alert on that one, the more recent book that Iverecommended that Um that really enjoyed read it Um last year, I think, or yearbefore Um, that Rayortland responded and said he said it was the secondgreatest novel, so that was his that Washis view. Thatis a fortunate man by Henrick, Pont, Pantopidan, theearly, twentieth centuryDanish peace. There M and again it's it's about all sorts of philosophy andand interesting things there, but um I'll give a some of the other ones I'llgive will be they're, more they're, just more fun orjust little more accessible. I mean, I know a ton of people, who'veread all the light. We cannot see heanthony to work. That's a great book.I mean especially I'm a sucker for world war, two stuff, so the the twoebooks Um life and fate byVasilly, Grossman and also stolen Grad Stonggrad came out last year intranslation for the first time. So if you love studying World War, two andjust are interested in that time period, it's another great one there and thenUm another one. Yes, like I said it's OL fairly, recent stuff um at least oerwithin the last ten years, or else thh last year or whatever. But Andy Crouch is a really big fan ofsoldier. The Great War by Mark Helprin. I've read that one as well, and Irecommend it strongly so you're in my wheelhouse here Kevin. I love thisstuff and I love to make book recommendations on fiction and M.usually what I do I mean I don't read only fiction, but what I try to do is Itry to par one fiction book. Oh I forgot to mention on there. Um thii'llbe a little bit off um off the norm, homegoing by Yagiyase, and I have to Ihave to admit- I don't know how to pronounce ther name. So that's not fair,but that is a story of a two H. Two African women separated atbasically birth and then therare different narratives within westAfrican slave trade and then also through American slavery, and it's justa remarkable book. It is not light in terms of the th, the subject matterthere and a lot of things like you said Justin, you got to get a contentwarning on this one for sure, but when it comes to Um just learning aboutracial dynamics in the United States...

...and history, even though it's a novelUm, I found it to be incredibly helpful and I'll I'll give you just this Umthis promotion on the book or this this Blurbon the book. There's something inthis book to confirm pretty much anybody's thesis of what's wrong about race inAmerica and that's one thing I love about novels is that they're, not thebest ones are not just trying to advance some sort of base thesis. Theyare trying to kind of encapsulate experience and they're Um tryed toagain telling a story, and so, if you cut no matter what angle you come in onthe racial question, you're going to find something in here, that's going toconfirm your suspicions and you leave it in the end, and you think I'm notexactly sure what this author was trying to accomplish, but you feel,like you, really understood and a and related in a way that you couldn'totherwise so um, that's my last one there you knowthere's a whole bunch of books in there I hadn't heard of most I had maybe one or two I'd read soyou're reading, all sorts of things and you read a lot more fiction than I dowh what just off the top of your head guys. If you had to put into some broadpercentages, the books that you read, how would it fall like I would? It iscompletely off the top of my head. You know I I bet five or ten percent ofwhat I read is fiction. I Bet H, you know. Fifty percents is history,even more than teout, maybe H, maybe thirty percent theology and thenwhatever's left some combination of politics economics. Those are just somebig buckets of things I like to read: How do you guys break it down they'r into add up to a hundred recounting pages 'r doing pos here? Are we just doinglike books just kind of books? I know fiction books, they take up a lot ofpages. Sometimes just what do you? If you looked on your shelf, you know likeI'm any time, maybe reading through five or ten different books. What arewhat are the types of books because I teach theology, and so I think I shouldI would expect Hap thiology, but then I did okay. I did my my doctor degree inhistory, and I guess that shows because I more often having history books andhistory books that have some some Tiin to politics. Theology, Christianity,church, an it just- makes sense. Those are the things I've I've always beeninterested in Kevin. Is there a kind of book, that's easier for you to read books that are making arguments areeasier. For me to read now fix I can get if it's a good fiction book Um, Ishouldn't say if it's good ecause, there's lots of good fictiong booksthat are hard to read. But you know I read orphan x over the Christmas break,which caviats there's a couple chapters you just skip because agregious sort ofsensuality stuff, but that was a spy thrill. I don't usually read that and Ijust I couldn't get away. I was was that's easy to read, but mostly I'mreading non fiction and books that are making arguments and arguments that I'm are answering questions that I've hadeither making arguments I going to agree with or not going to agree with,and that that's true too. This is another podcast, but you guys are not preachers by trade,but I've talked to other preachers and for me, when I put together a sermon,the easiest sermons for me to put together are the sermons that aremaking in argument. I mean argumentative but they're arguing, foryou know what Jesus meant in the olivate discourse or they're, arguingfor why we can trust the resurrect those things the harder ones are when it's a passas everybody knows about,and I have to think of a way to you'll make it reallyfeel and Singo N and I talk to other...

Pats, Tho, say they're, just theopposite and they love those passages, it's obvious on the face of it, andthen they can kind of play with it. I like passages that are difficult, andthat probably says something about what I like to to read and- and I got another one last book questionfrom that, but I want to make sure you guys can answer what what sort ofPercentag es en reading the reason I was asking that Kevin is because, asI've grown as a reader Um wefirst of all, it's just I'm not the same reader.That I was that at thirty nine that I was at twenty nine and certainly not atnineteen and some of it is my interests- have changed, but also it's because nowI've accumulated a lot of knowledge that helps me to be able to read booksand so ihave a little bit different perspective. Now, unlike how could DonCarson and Japacker have done so many blookburb look book blurbs one partbecause they kindo know what's being said writ in the books in many cases,and so that that's just totally changed for me, but the Reavon I asked Kevin isbecause Um I', I there's certain kinds of likephilosophically oriented systematic theology is extremely difficult for me.I'm not yeah. I know that's what I'm saying so, like a thousand pages ofthat would just tax me in extraordinarilydifficult ways. A five hundred page commentary is very hard for me. It justnot as hard as reading. You know some sort of science text or something, butit's just I've just had to it's hard to admit. This is kind of like a a podcast.Where I talk about all my things, that should disqualify me like not reading,spurgeon and Lewis, but Um- I just I don't know if there's somebodylistening that needs to hear that we're not all gifted in the same ways asreaders and Um. What I've just noticed about myself is that I am a strongly narritibalthinker, Um, it's if you guys know it's the way I talk is the way I think, andso history works for me Biblical theology, as a discipline works for me,novels work for me. Territan doesn't work for you no does not work. For me,Adlyoug Edwards is an exception. Edwards is fine Um, I love Edwards, soI'm not sure where that kind of fits Sam, but just general percentages,Kevin Um, roughly I try to have four books at a time so sociology, SlashPublic Affairs would be one about twenty twenty percent. Whatever TwentyFive Percent Theology Bible there's always something there. Then history,which again that's that's the easiest thing for me to be able to to read it,goes the quickest and then fiction so that basically rounds out about about Nin quarters there. Jussa, that's spending this entire time tryingto make my numbers mavte com tet. I was told thered enomnot amathematician, justintaylor H, yeah, it's hard to quantify, but Um you, a breakout theology and Biblicalstudies like Amaybe Theology, twenty percent pyplical studies, includinglike commentaries that sort of thingmaybetwenty five percent history and culture together- maybethirty to a practical Christian living. Fifteen percent- maybe fiftion tenpercent, although almost all of that now by audio Ye. So last question as wethink about books H, I got a comment from one of our many myriad oflisteners this week. It said it was good to hear you talkabout books, I'd love to hear you in subsequent episodes, talk not aboutjust what you're reading but give us some habits of how you retain what you read, how youlearn from what you read how you prepare in research, so there's lots of thingsthere and we'll get to that in another...

...podcast. But this question I thoughtwas good and it ws maybe worth ending on we've circled around it. But how doyou choose what to read- and I part of I hope these last fewminutes of conversation well, as you said, call and help set people freezefrom y false guilt. I read sometimes at the Endof you whattreven wax has read, and I think Oh man, I'm not I'm not reading any of that.You know. Elmolar stuff is always books where people are killing people. Youknow they're, usually, generals and usually churchills involve some shurtshils in falls. I think I don't know anything about military historycompared to that and Russmore has a very different set of eclectics SORTFJimmy Buffet BIOS and which, actually, that probably, would be interesting. Iwent to a Jimmy Buffett concert once that's for how long ago I was in highschool, Oh okay, so long timeata long time ago, yeah. So how do we choose what we read? I'vetold other people before to follow your nose and what you'reinto- and I know earlier on, I thought I need to be well rounded, and so I need to make a list of the greatbooks that I have to get through and that may work for some people. It justdidn't work for me to say I'm always going to be reading now, maybe you'remore disciplined in a colony, a fiction book and this kind of book- and I justrealize, there's seasons and they have to do with current events and they haveto do with things that I'm interested in and so I'm reading three or fourbooks on slavery. Right now, Mayewe'll talk about hem sometime and that's just you know something set off. Oh I gotsome questions. I want to learn more and so I'm reading some of those bookswhere, if you had told me to read them three years ago, I might have Sa. Idon't really want to read that you know I I love reading through syssematictheology, partly I'm teaching it now, but I I have so many more questions, I'more answered. FY MORE QUESTIONS THAN I did ten years ago. I know how much moreintricate these debates are, and so I can learn things that I didn't evenknow that I needed to learn. I've been teaching a class in theENLEIGHTENMENT, and so I've been reading a lot of philosophy in thinking, there's actually interesting things tolearn from Thomas read and Kant and whoever elseso Y. I think you need to follow your nose and the most important thing. IsYou r your reading and understand that not everyone has the sort of jobs thatwe do, that lend themselves to read him and not to feel you know, beatingyourself up. If you didn't reach the you know, Dacarson, I don't ee Wan tsay five hundred books. I don't know how many ridiculous number of books he that he's thing's written that he readsin a year: Oul contrats of of books, but you remember, George W Bush and heyou know, have a contest with whoever about how many books and he was readingCom to a hundred and quoks yeah with Carl Rove. I mean that's amazing, so Ido think if the president could read some books now he didn't have eightkids so come on so yeah. It's pretty eclectic what Iwhat I may be interested in at the moment, but I think there's somethingto just reading and continuing to learn. How do you guys go about deciding whatto read Al of the first, because Colin willhave a much more thoughtful and careful answer? will let him and T E, I no, butye H. I would echo what you said Kevin. I think, there's always a temptation,especially if you go kind of through the academic rout to feel perpetually like your second class oryou don't lead as much o somebody else, O you're, not o smart of somebody elseor you don't have any nuches on your literary bell to somebody else and justa free yoursel from that that you don't have to read what everybody else readsand it is kind of miserable, I think, to read something just becausefeel likeyou have to read it and not because you...

...um want to read it. That's how you havehigh school XC. Now people disagree with me on this. I don't think you need to finish booksand I think you can benefit from books even if you've read tree jarry out ofit and jump off. If you want to go into someoyt window Berrys Jabricrow onechapter and that doesn't Deedyo any good. Oh o thanks yeah tat, toasomehing else,just a free up listeners who might be listening in Um both of you aut there. Even if you read five hundred books ayear and you live ninety years, you have still read only a nobl skillamount of Bos out there, just free yourself of like even ifyou're, the best thid person in the world. You are reading a very, verysmall percentive, even Y, just a typical public library, and then finalcomment is that light Kevin I'd like to read books and Badches so or at least tobuy them abatches. If I pick up a book on slavery, I wantto find the three best four best books on slavery or Um, on Abraham Lincoln or on somethinghappenig happening Fulturaly, so that I don't just get one perspective and Ithink it kind of enriches all of the books. When you look at more than oneat once on the same topic, Thats Helpful Justin, I would say justoverall Um just make sure you are reading Um. That's that's why I do thedifferent genres not necessarily to push myself, but because I want to makesure I'm just always in the mood to read something and my moods change, sopart of us just just make sure you are reading and pick up what strikes yourfancy at that moment. A lot of my choices come fromrecommendations. I think it's important, though, to find recommendations thatcome from peers. I people who are on your level. It wouldn't do you any goodif you were eighteen years old and had never read much fiction at all andyou're listening to me, talk through this and say: Oh okay, so I'm justgoing to start jumping in on that stuff that wouldn't make any sense. Itwouldn't be a wise decision there so find people who are generally on yourlevel to be able to help, introduce you to things and be able to understand howto make those choices and then do find somebody who is a step ahead of you.Who can tell you? No, don't don't spend your time on that, but do spend yourtime on this over here. That's one thing I would recommend and then also Um. You know I. It was a life changingexperience for me to study Russian literature in College. If I had set out to do that on my own,I would have failed. So if you want to jump in on brothers,carry a ots off, you want to jump in on Dondaovski's Canon go for it, but don't be afraid to ask for helpwhether it be watching lectures or listening to do them or you know,buying an introductory copy or something like that, or just tellingyourself I'm going to have to ramp up to that, and not just jump in on that.I think the important importance is to see reading as a genuine delight andalso as a chance for God to edify you and to be able to sanctify you and notas some kind of badge of declaring your righteousness before men, ASEM andbeware of that, especially Um yeah, especially if you're, younger andyou're listening on this pod cast very careful about that. It's really wiseand and it's it can seem like a silly thing, but we've all we've all been around and we've beenthose sort of people. I'm sure I know I have you o hear people talking aboutbooks. I mean I wan to jump in and say something about H, Dosievsky. Maybe Ihad to read something in high school. I don't remember so I'm I'm not readingthat and I have y. u you all know this, just an better than both of us. YouKnow Piper has been a real example of...

...humility in this area. caue he'sadmitted all sorts of times publicly he's not a fast reader and I've been inlots of settings with. You know lots of people that you all would knowand Piper never puts on airs that he's read all these books and yet you canreliably assume that if he has read something you know he's read it as carefully asanyone and so there's different ways to read.That's part of what I've had to learn to is justic right. Sometimes you readthree chapters and you've learned something from it and you know wherethe book is, and maybe you go back and you know where to find something in theother chapters and then sometimes you pour through a book word for Word Lineby line and other times you say I'm going to give this an hour to try toget some big ideas and H. th, it doesn't do us a lot of good to just beable to tell people. We've read all these books that we have sitting on ourshelves if we haven't been shaped by them. If we haven't been changed bythem, have ave been challenged by the really good ones, and so there are lotsof good examples of not only reading widely but reading deeply and using asan opportunity to give us wisdom and edification not to puff up. Thank youman for being here I've. So many other things I wanted to get to you know thisPon cast is not sponsored by anyone. Yet if it were, it would be by the pizzaranch. So if you are near in my glutin days,there were many many joyous occasions better than books and Cactus bread, soINCD all Ofer listeners to go sit at a buffet with lots of people that that'sright. Ne That's right, go find some books by yourself under the SNEEZEGUARD in a NI pread go to everybody's favorite pizza jointbecause they serve fried chicken. THAT'S MEA! It is if you can do both and that CACTU SBREAD is not ontolimbus bread. No, I know you didn't read tolken so that that'so, it'sescaping you no idea what that means. I asent both Kevin and Colin pictures toprove that in Minnesota there is a pizza ranch with a bowling alley inside. Let's just notic a dream come true: WE HAVE NO SPONSOR UM we're Jusi Rhousins doing advertisements for pizza ran, of course, who would be betterthan KIRT cousin, who Wa cot out to our friend friend of the show kirt cousins.O He's he's a long time listener, O um, but um w. We don't have actualsponsors, but I do want Ta honor, a good good good friend of ours, a realfriend of ours, Um, and that is a a very close friend of mine, just textedme and said the aother. He said this has to win a book award this year.Daneortlands, gentle and lowly art of Christ for sinners and suffererspublished by our good friends at Crossway, are comedy testing. Theydidn't send you acount, yet I can't remember I guess I'm the special one.You can't remember you get too many of them. That's true, already important people over here, OAlrigt, who enjoy the pizce Arange, yes, oky! Well, thank you all and hope totalk to you again next week.

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