Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode 11 · 1 year ago

Season 1: Episode 10 - Cancel Culture, The Inner-Ring, New Statues That Should Be Built, and Summer Reading Lists

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Originally released on July 1st, 2020, Kevin DeYoung, Collin Hansen, and Justin Taylor discuss cancel culture, the inner-ring, new statues that they think should be built, and their summer reading lists.

This is life and books and everythinghosted by Kevendy Yong Justin Taylor in colinhansongreadings and salutationswelcome back to life and looks and everything with Justin Tailor in ColinHanon, I'm Keveng to young, to give you some important announcements at thefront end in case you're, one of the very few who don't make it to the endof the podcast. I doubt that anyone anct you start is good to the last drop,but me will be taking n indeterminate hiatis over the summer,probably a month or sometime, we'll come back in August. We anticipate- andwe hope to be- I don't know if, if bigger and better than ever, but itleasts to be a season too, as it were, podcast two point o and were were inthe process of trying to figure out some sponsors which will help us takesome things to the next level, with editing and H, notes, so notes so show no DenosBookins, so book planks. All these things that people have been asking for and h just want to say thank you to allthe folks at Christ. Covenant who have helped us here in sn. One immeasurablyso to get us off the ground and to do this you know really on a whim: Hey. Wehave a pandemic, let's start a podcast and have been nothing but cheerfullywonderfully professional and support of, and we're thankful for them and lookforward to season too coming later this summer,even with some guests here and there so stay tune. This will be. Then weanticipate perhaps the last you'll hear from us for a few weeks, and we want totalk about books, of course we'll get to that, but just to continue with someof the conversations we've had over the past few weeks and relating to all thethings swirling around in our world. At the moment, actually one of ourlisteners wrote in we're getting H, Sand Mail and e the people what theywant co Ar. Would you talk just a little bit about cancel culture andit's become even more prevalent and we've seen that the the the dinosaurs, the monsters are noweating theyre young as the cancel culture giveest and take it away? That's not just going afterconservatives, but even those who have gone after conservatives are nowgetting eaten up by the cancel culture, eythey're eating, they're old Aein,their yon they're young. It's the young eating their old. What an Teti! I thinkmost people have have heard of the phrase now, but where did it come from?What is it? Why is it problematic for Christians in particular mean I don'tknow about the origins of the anymology? I'm not sure about. All of that. I justknow that my goodness social media is such aperfect avenue for being able to expose UN acceptable thoughts. I mean, I think,when you go back and you look at Um, you read about the coddling of theAmerican mind from looking off in hyht. They talk about the way that languagehas shifted. That now, you'll often hear people say that your languagephysically hurts me. It makes me physically ill, so we've weaponized thelanguage which now means that if you have said something that is notacceptable, then you cannot be redeemed that you have said something that is,that is permanent. Now it's gone through all kinds of different athletes,because we go back to something that they wrote when they were twelve orthey're fourteen or sixteen or something like that, which basicallysay: Hey parents, don't let your kids be on twitter at age, twelve orfourteen or sixteen fo that matter Um, hopefully we'll see some changes there,but the cancel culture is not it's not complete, not everybody gets canceledand therefor, they lose their job, they lose their husband or their or theirwife. They lose their friends Um. I mean we've seen this inside Christiancircles, we've seen that form within blog pokts or something like that. Thatare not supposed to say the right thing. So people want to cancel them, whichmeans just y Yo you're cast out. This is oldtestament religion. Here you are outside of the camp. You areuntouchable now and I think it's a way of more or less policing thought I don'tthink it's a lot more complicated than that it's being able to in in. In theabsence of an ethic of persuasion, this is a way of using sort of of real power.It's it's! It's not tangible in the way...

...that we typically think of I power,because it's not so much the more powerful you are, the more likely youare to get canceled in some ways because the more vulnerable you are so,for example, you're representing a major institution, and you do somethingin your personal life. Maybe you have an episode that somebody captures onfilm. Then you jeopardize the reputation of that company or or someplace that you represent and therefore they can attack the company and forceyou then to be canceled and you get fired and things like that and youtalked about you know the religious component to it in a sociological sense,then you start dealing with second and third and fourth degrees of separation.Youshould be canceled because you haven't canceled that person and how?How often in a twenty four new cycle is that basically the angle either fromthe right or the left, this person who you've been associated with or likes.You said something horrible. What will you do now? An both sides are trying to use it.Have you seen just a Michigan State, Grad Wright, Jemi Hill Yeh, so she'sbeen a a key proponent of cancel culture, but then it turns out that shehad been tri. She had said some things about trance. He made a transjoke andthen all of the right wing dudes have decided to pounce on her and say see.So it's it's not just a left and a right thing, m m, more popular amongthe left and more typical among the left, but the right has found hey. Thisis fun. We can play this too ell, you remember when we were in high schooland we all read Nathaniel halthorn scarlet letter. No,whether you know that's really indicative of what puritans were werelike, but we we read with horror. She had to wear the the A for theadulterius around her neck and walk through town and look at this publicshaming and you read it and you just think how could people be like that?Well, we know how people can be like that, because that's what people arelike. That's that's human nature and we see it unleashed in our social mediaage that it's not the it's not sexual sins anymore, but it's saying the wrongword or using the wrong sort of joke or making the wrong sort of comment thatmakes people upset and it's not n this away. It's very difficult and I'L I'llget your feed back here. Justin, it's very difficult as Christians, becauseon the one hand, there's there's a right sort of instinct as Christians,we do want to be sensitive to others. You think of the proverb like a madman.Shooting firebrands and deadly arrows is a man who who hurts his neighbor andsaid I was only joking, so we do care about how our words affect people. Wedon't want to just say: Well, tough, enout, buttercup, and yet, on the otherhand, I it intentionality has been removed from discourse so that, whatever you said, whatever yourintention, whether there ought to have been offense taken or not, they areviolent. They are offensive if I perceive them to be, and that is a adangerous place to be in withan intent, but perception. Yes, when the onereceiving them, you saw not quite cancel culture, but what was it inOakland a few weeks ago when they found what they thought were nouses hangingin a park and was actually an African American man who said m? This was a gymroutine. These ropes that we've had hanging up and the white mayor or citycouncil said it doesn't matter whatever your intention was doesn't matter thatyou're black the these are offensive and must be taken down, which justboggles the mind: How we've gotten to that sort of point just in you know, well the INS and outs of theinterwebs and have seen this. How do you sense what's going on protect yourselfagainst it stand athwart against it? I want to hear just in respond to theaccusation that John Piper invented cancel culture, yeah, Sarah Poly and Bailey of theWashington Post in Colin. I would count, as a friend said, I'm prett surprised,litte conservatives yeah. You worked with her Christianity today and reallyrespect Ara in her work yea. She said I'm kind of surprisedthat conservatives are against canciculture. Anybody remembered JohnPiper saying farewell: Rob Bell, which that was a three we three word tweet.The John Piper did with the link going to my blog post, which was respondingto Rob Bell. So I remember conversations with Collin on the phoneis I felt like my world was coming in on me and the New York kinds is callingme for comment and t comments were flooding in about whata terrible person I was. I think Kennin was involved with all that too Rigga Iwas. I remember I had just done a a Saturday I just on a wedding. I was atmy church at a wedding resception. I shouldhave been paying attention to mywife from what was going on and I', I'm...

...stepping out to talk to Collin orJustin about to do the farewell, Ro Bell and the books coming out, and I don't think he invented, cancelCaltur Noo. I think that tweat was canceling but h. You know John, doesn'tneed us to ride to his defence. Oh, but it's an interesting thing tothink about Samuel James. My colleague at Crossway said I'm all about cancelculture. I don't know that I would use those words t when you're talking aboutthe church and excommunication and putting the wolves outside of where thesheep are. There is a form of cancellation, that's appropriate! It'swhen people Y uilaterally decide that they are tthe PRIESTA prophetess of online discourse and can excommunicate anybodyfrom polite conversation that it becomes more problematic, but I think Iit is indicative. It is illustrative of the difference of John Piper. Wouldrejoice. H would be the first to to twee. If Rob Bell were to repent wereto say that he was misguided and he was leading people astray and that hemisunderstood God's word and misrepresented typlical revelation John. Would rejoice and say: Welcomeback, I'm glad that you're here cancerculture is something differentwhere it says you have committed the unforgivable unpardonable sin and thereis no recourse. It doesn't matter. How sorry you are it doesn't matter whatforms of Penance you do you will be punished and you will not just beprivately punished, but you will be banished and annihilated. Essentially, I think thekey to understanding all of it is h. The the safety metaphor that you knowwe need to have safe places and the three of us work for institutions andwe're part of churches- and you know weeperhaps in the past, had to haverestraining orders against people who are violent and- and you don't say, ohit's, okay- that you can come around if you just H, feel sorry if you startdoing better, no, they need there's kind of a th re. There's no exceptions. Youcannot come around here, you, you are eliminated and once you use thatmetaphor and apply it towards online discords and somebody committing sinsthat are against the cultural narrative. I think it is hugely problematic.Collin said it's a culture that has lost faith in persuasion and, of coursethe even deeper answer is that that has no place for grace. We all want gravesfor ourselves, but we want justice for other people, and I see I think, we'reseeing that played out that the cancel culture is an anti Christian form ofaction right and you talk about church discipline and I would agree, I would really push back againstusing that term, because H as any good book of Church order will tell you thepurposes in search. Discipline are ultimately to restore the offender tobring glory to God to protect the peace and purity of the church and as apastor, who has had a number of occasions where we've both exercise, suspension or excommunication,but have also had occasions where we've welcomed people back. Remember onewoman coming to the table with tears and hugging me as she came out and shehad been welcomed back to the table upon many months for years and n. Thencoming to repentance so there's there's grace available, and while I don't denythat for some people I mean we can't judge into the human hearts and peoplefeeling these actually feeling unsafe, whether they they should feel that wayor not, but actually do. But I think it's safe to say that there there'salso just some simple human totem poll ism going on. That is, ifyou're at the top of the totem pole or a different metaphor, if, if you're atthe you know the top of the building- and you have you know a hundred peoplewith you who have made it to the top or seems like this is the place of moralexcellence. If you push a few other people offthere, and then they push a few people off you, you feel a little better aboutyourself, there's not very many people. On top of this moral platform andyou're there still you feel safe for the moment and so pushing people off.It's the other metaphor, CES leuis, it's the inner ring kind of phenomenon.It gives you the sense of moral excellence in virtue without having todo the hard work of developing patience and long suffering and character. Butyou push people off the cliff and you are still left for the time being, andthat feels good. I think that's a hundred percent trueand if anybody out there has not read the Inter ring by CS Lewis, that is, I think, we're all pretty slow to saymust reads, but that is a must readn. I think, for our times on thing that weapower explanatory power, that ssay has...

...an it's not o B in it. If you read thatyou aren't just going to think ah see a flut saw what's wrong with other people,no Youre Youryorif, you have any humility, you'll, read it and you'll. Think ohboy that operates within my heart. You know all the time. Lord have mercy. One thing that's been new for me inthis past few weeks is hearing more than one story not about online cancelculture but kind of on the ground, cancil culture among young people inparticular, and not even for saying something, terrible or Saing, somethingthat goes against the cultural orthodoxies, but for failing to speakout, say on the race issue. If somebody hasinstagram and does not use that to protest, does not use that to condemncertain things which are good things to protest. Good things to condemn thevery act of silence is taken as an active of violence and not beingsupportive and h a lot of mean spiritedness and cancellation and critique coming just for the actofsilence, which I think is a different angle than just what we're seeing onontwiter or another medium Scoland has 't ever been critical of TGC for notsaying something I do not know of what you speak. Ithink I appreciate that. That's why I love that people keep circulating thethe clip from Seinfeld and Cramer when he famously joins the AIDS walk, butwon't wear the ribbon. You will not wear the ribbon. Yeah you're not were aribbon. It beat him out M'cause, he won't wear the AIDS Rib and he's likeI'm against AIDS, I'm marching for AIDS. I just don't want to wear the ribbonand all they care about. Is We just you have to wear the ribbon? You don't careabout the ribbit connected to this. Take US maybe on abrief tangent, but we talke last time. Callin. You gave us a really goodexplanation of with the the bulkanization of media, witheverything being broken up into smaller and smaller bits it. It encourages morepolarity because you don't need to appeal to any vast swath of people,because nobody getting a big group of people. You just have to have a verypassionate small San base and you can be a pretty big deal, but what may seemcounter intuitive, as that has become more fragmented? We live in a timewhere our news, and especially our politics, has become nationalized anduniversalized use to say all politics is local and now it's well. No politicsis local everything and that has to do with the Internet. It has to do withthe the disappearance of local newspapers, where you maybe have oneliberal one conservative newspaper, which you really want is to get themorning newspaper the afternoon newspaper. They tell you what's goingon in in your city. Well, that's all dead and dying what matters then arwhat did trump to eat today. What did Nancy pilosy? What did AOC and thesestories then some of which in one sense, what's happening in Seattle with thechazs or the chop, is, is a big deal in another sense, it's going to beforgotten and it doesn't really have any immediate bearing on probablyBirmingham, except that it's elevated as a national story, and this happens allover the place so that any one of us can take the worst story, whether it's our worst fears on theright or on the left and say Yup. That's that's what's happening, that'swhat police are like everywhere. That's what left us are like everywhere andthat's coming D. You know the phrase nut picking instead of knitpickingpickn the worst example of a Christian, the worst example of someone of adifferent race. The worst example of a Democrat or Republican, a police offerwhomever, and because there are an innumerable number of stories at anyone time. Um t the narratives we want to create are basically nonfalsifiable,because no one really knows- and you take any one of these stories not to say all of them or none of themdeserve national. You know outcry or recognition, but you take any one ofthem and it becomes the state of the matter. That's what people are like.That's what our country is like. Well, that's bound to be polarizing and the stories are nevergoing to be with all the people gathering togetherto clean up after Minneapolis is going to be all the ret. So anything we do oris it just simply an awareness of what's happening that may at least keepsome of our baser passions in check?...

What do you think calling two points there? One is we need tounderstand how we got into this position and that's a STO's, aneconomic story. It's a story of advertising. So why did local mediadecline? It's because local media lost the delivery mechanism, they lost theirfinancing mechanism so once Craig's list and things like that came in toreplace classifieds and then once social media came in to be able toallow targeting through facebook, especially and also now instagram foradvertising, you don't have any way to subsidize locamedia. So that's whywe've lost that sort of pragmatic politics M, because you don't reallycare what I mean you you can in some cases,but in a smaller town, especially you don't really care which party you'remayor as a part of because the things that you typically think of for aNational Party aren't really relevant at a local level in the same way,especially because local governments and state governments, you know Illinois would beg to differ,but they they have to live with te goverment in Illinois, Te'me aware ofnot a good one, I'm having for a long time, but you just you have to livewithin your means at some level and it's easier to find that common ground.But again, there's no mechanism for news to be able to cover it except h,more or less what you'ere having come into place or these chamber of Commercenewspapers, which are't only positive news. They don't deal with any of thehard issues. That's the first issue, and so I don't know how we fixe that ifwe want local news, it's going to have to be philanthropic or it's going tohave to come through the Chamber of Commerce and it's just going to behyping local. Like positive stories. It's not bad. I think I, my house, wereceive like two magazines and two newspapers that are all just subsidizedto the advertising through a Chamber of Commerce typ approach, but then thesecond issue is- and this is something that we can do. I can't urge this strongly enough. Do Not Treat News as entertainment. I think that's. Why Kevin we see what happened in Seattle, be soimportant to Charlotte or to Sioux city or to Birmingham, because it'sentertainment, it's more or less a form of reality. T V um, it's kind ofscripted for a certain audience to produce a certain effect and, like yousaid it's that nutpicking there th the the turn of news into entertainment,where everything is a battle of good and evil between those horrible peopletrying to destroy your way of life and the good people trying to defend. Youknow everything, that's that's wonderful about this world is deeplydestructive and don't treat news as entertainment. It's not. This is notintended to be fun an maybe that's. Why n this Panamic, we Miss Sports, so much'cause. It gets a COMINAT. What do you do calling to to work against that inyour own life? In your own, mind, 'cause? I believe that and ye I'm drawnto the headlines of you won't believe what somebodys somebody did. Somebodysaid and W, Oh t, that's that's tempting to click on. Rather now w Weif,he as an word article in Atlantic or The economist yeah. I I think maybe it's because I'm immersedinthiss all the time. It's not! It's not fun. It's kind of like when youbecome a parent. All of a sudden. Those stories about bad things that happen tolittle kids are very fun. You know they're not very entertaining they'rethey're, not ones. You want to click on. They just raise your anxiety and yourfears all out of proportion of reality, and that's, I think, maybe J st ifyou're more exposed to it like I have been for a long petiof time, and youknow more of what's going on behind the curtain just this is this: has realdamaging effects. First of all, the people who watch Um and and just to ourbroader political and cultural ecosystem. So I don't know, I guessthat's not really a solution, but that's where I'm coming from it's justthis is not this is this is too this is painfulwhen when people are used, I guess when you're the object like we go back tocancel culture, not so fun when you're being cancelled, not so much in thiscase when you're the one who's being dragged all the time by people whothink that it's entertaining to watch you you know to watch you being liedabout, that's not fun w. let me take this in a a different direction thatwill try to be positive here. Hopefully, that discussion was of some positivebenefit, but we talked en previous episodes about tearing down statues andI think we agreed Um some should be turned down. You got to deal with acase by case basis. The mobs should not be able to just las so whatever theywant. There are channels to do this, and many people are eager to respond tosome of those, but I want to talk about...

...what statues should be put in place. Th,not thinking of you know the people that already havestatues, you know, maybe the we find out later. Some of these people do, but,as you think in your mind, who would you like to see? Have a a statue?Somebody from the past who's famous to you- or you know somebody you know now is-could be you're welcome to take this in a somewhat humorous direction. H, youknow the person who invented Cinebon or Ohor, take it in in a more seriousdirection, but think about who are some of the people and Whil to throat thecaveot that I, if we find SOM, if somebody tells some listener says youdidn't know that this person said this or this don't don't, cancel us. Okay,we're not claiming to be biographical experts on these people, but I have alist of several people but I'll throw it to you. First Justin: Do you haveany thoughts of people? You would like to see have h recognized with a statue, I'msure you guys will think of funny ones, but I would start with somethingserious in in terms of my own past and life story that would be Tommy frasersrun against the FLORDA Gatorsas a ennimal. That's a good thing. o capturethat moment that Nebraska fans have never been able to relive Nover thirty years would be just aglorious thing. I think I would stand there and weep just sculpted floridigator afterfloridigated after flortigator attempting to tackle touchdown, Tommyso kind of starting off in a serious note, but that would be at the top ofmy list. Another or Nebraska rleded wone. I didn't think about Justin wouldbe alice. Gordon's home run two thousand and fifteen game one worldseries that probably will be a statue at Coughman' stadium, soon esOtnabrassaalum a husker. Yes, it's sport called Baseball Little Ball. Theyhit it out of the park. I thought you'd appreciate it at least because it's aNebraskamo, I didn't Rowe N Oon Justin. The next one would be the northwesternhailmary. No, you did not. You did not just go there. The back, op quartervackthroling, a fifty yard to the Nebreska receiver that Georgi Wengo to Hamp who or we your Otrn recruited Ye really from Illinois. If you go to you too, it's just anentertaining thing to listen to Nebraska northwestern, Hail Marythere's one you too, where you can listen to the Nebraska radio callfollowed by the northwestern radio collar. Maybe it's vice versa. To her,I remember where I was Justin. I remember where I was. I texted you immediately afterwardsathank you. I appreciated that a beautiful moment. Okay, I'm goingtojump in with you'r getting me thinking of Um good sports ones, but I s aMichigan State Fan, Jailan Jaylene, wats Jackson. It YGOTTA put it the hagainst Michigan, the botched fumble, with no time left back. I mean that and then thesurrender Cobra afterward, you remember where you work at in Birmingham RmighamAlabama. I was driving from my hotel to Briarwood speak at the missionsconference. I pulled up into the parking lot. I heard that MichiganState didn't get it on fourth and whatever, and there was a minute and ahalf left and I was so frustrated. We were both ranked, I think, in the toptendushy Michigan State that year and I went into trying to pretend like I wasspiritual to preach at admission's conference, and I was just sodusthraught that we lost this game and I'm getting ready to speak and in I myphone starts blowing up with tax, and so I said something like Oh excuse me.I just uh, I'm I I think my wife may be wanting something and I went back intothe bandroom N. I perception to watch this and people just say you won'tbelieve what happened now, it's hard for me to watch because he broke hiship when he got you know when and got tackled by his own team mates, but I'msure that was worth it. So that would be one I had remember. You watched theearlier part of that game at my inlaw's house, a you wrkinit yeah 'cause, I W S.The royals were playing at the same time in the alcic against the Blue Jays.It was Likeendi or he afternoon, okay, I'll drop in a few others, and let yougo call in sticking with sports N. I I haven't not expert on him but beingfrom Michigan Mike Illich, so Mike illage, not only little CAESARSbest value meal friend of the show friend of the Shel, you know and I'mnot a tiger's and a red wings fan but owned them did did right by them.People a and some little very philanthropic h came out later in lifethat quietly he had been paying Rosa...

Park's rent in Detroit when she was facing. I think some opposition from nearduwells and really American dream kind of story of born heand his wife of Macedonian immigrant parents and then making it rich withpizza and owning these sports franchises and doing as much as anybodyto try to revitalize Detroit. So there's, probably a statue of himalready and then M Norman Borlog. You know him, he ly wantto know belt prize, but he's the father of the Green Revolution. It's armingand ou read about him and Dreg Easter Books Easterbrooks book on why thingsare much better than they seem, but it's estimated that his revolution infarming techniques might have saved one billion lives wow. When we studyhistory, there's the there's the inevitable bias that it's almostimpossible to study what didn't happen so there's always a bias toward whatdid happen and so the heroes who did think well. Here's someone who'srevolution in agriculture may have saved one billion lives with moresustainable yields around the world. So I have some some Christian ones I'llget back to, but jump in I'll transall all transition into the Christian ones. I had to look up, who had a statue andwho didn't Gsptwo of my people, who I wanted to have a statue did AlexanderSoljanitsen the end twentih century. There is where at you for him and alsofanny Luhamer, the Mississippi Civil Rights Anist, also a statue of her, sothe other ones I got a few Um, Cori, tenbom or betsy- could be both Dto be together. That'd be great. I didn't. I cdidn't find one of CoreyAnywhere Carl Henry feels like there should at least be a bus or somethinglike that at the library that's named for him at Trinity. I don't remember abus, but they could gr never his office. Perhaps yeah. That's true, that'sprobably right it neers office. I think they could put like coral on a benchout front and you could sit next to him. I think that would be fun. John Newton,I don't think I saw it. I had the letters of John Newton last week in thepodcast. As far as I could tell for a man who contributed so much sociallybut also theologically and and our music poetically M, didn't see anythingthere on an Oldny or somewhere, ah you'd, think M Louis Vam, Parinifamously from the book unbroken Um, you know, but up a world war, two vetstatue right there, a man who had you, know great contributions to the kingdom,but then also heroic. U Effort in World War Two and then a fictional character.I figure. If there is a biography of aticus finch, then there should atleast be a statue of aticus finch, though interesting an Menroville. Thereis a statue in Alabama here. There is a statue of the children from the book,but not AF articus, which is a surprise. So we should just you know somebodycould make it in Gregory peks image. I suppose it Wasatticus FYNCH, that'sgood! I got more just in what do you have yeah the RASCA theme, so it was nineteen. Ninety Three OrangeBoll, nojst Gini up Tom Osborne, does have a statue outsidewhen more today about theen taking does Charles spurgon have a spat. The STATUnewwhere got to I've been, is church many times. It's says,spurgeon's church, I don't know. If there's a statue ink there has to be,you would think I've seen obviously lots of paintingsand drawings of him, but I've never seen a statue, so it seems like hewould be hen. There's got to be a CS. Lewis. Statue somewhere right seemslike I've seen at least a bust of Lewis, but INOOR, maybe Louis is worthy of one.I only know what s going, no claim they have the original one. That's all Iknow yeah thythey've got the wardrobe they. Maybe they can put the statueinside of it or something like that. Does it gus we baptists have like the relics of it. perchant's teeth orsomething thatthat would be the place for thestatue in it. The bus, Yeah Yeah Yeah. They. I wonder if they have one there.I don't know I'm not up on my theological. Statues like I should be,but Augustin would be one certainly worthy and I'm sure there's onesomewhere, but no one knows what he looks like. So I guess you just Kindo,make it up what it a PRONOUNCD Agustin and not August snine ha e Ho. I know all righ. Do you have more? No okay? II got some others H: Samuels Wamer, Oh...

Islam, I'm born in resland Michigan myneck of the woods. There's is wamer cottage at hope, college, and when Iwas there, Ben Patterson was the chapel and there was some. You know there wasa big revival of interest. Ind Missions- and I don't know- what's become of that,but there was renewed interest in Zwamer, so a missionary in the Arabian Peninsulain that part of the world for what twenty thirty years and then taughtmiseology at Princeton, but a wonderful writer and evangelical calvinist, so Samuels Wamer.How about I don't know too much about him, butthe storyis fascinating the documentary from a few years ago, Pastor, Lei JongRock the drop box gy in Korea, saving the babies is they put them in the drop box. I know some people were critical of.Well, that's encouraging people to dispose of babies, but you know hesaved hundreds of babies that way, one that would be maybe controversialbut someday. There will be a statue once the the the politics of it are inthe rear view, mirror more distantly, but I do think there will be schoolsnamed after Clarence, Thomas and a statue somewhere. I know you gotto justsort of come down on was. Was He telling the truth and itwas a high tech lynching at his confirmation hearings which, from whatI've read, I'm persuaded that it is but his his UH. You know PBS did a really remarkabledocumentary couple of months ago. It was available for free, I'm not sure ifit still is, but it was just him narrating the story of his life, andyou know media clips and pictures, but a true rags to richis. Not I don't knowif e' he's rich, but certainly from um extreme racial H, animis and poverty toheight. So there's a great American story there and I, I think, a storyworth remembering and then here's the last o e. While we're recording thisthe only justice to descent in today's a terribe abortion decision by actuallyattacking Rovee way praise God for that, the only one unfortunately well, it wasfive four decision right. He was the only one who dissented in his lescentspecifically said what we should be going after here. The Way RMS eeothersmay have agreed, but they didn't choose tand. Then I know you Nebraska, that's right. Big Fan, advranc you'llagree with this. One, don't want to embarrass her she's ever listening, but Johnni EricSantata Yoman. I mean out someone that, without you know, drawing attention toherself 'cause. That's never her point you feel like I want to be a holier person in heavenis worth it and uh Ou Kn, all of us a any time we've spent with her. So therewill be a glorious statue and whether it's in her wheelchair orstanding up appart in the process of standing upwould be beautiful. I mean I was thinking. Atcou like the like thedropbox pastere would be a great statue, butyou had Johnni getting up. You know starting to starting to stand up orbeing welcomed up by Geez I mean you, don't do a statute o Jesus, I c handjust yeah of rain a hand like being led up would be beautiful. That's beautiful all right! Well, thank you forindulging me on our our fundraising tour for these ministatues as we wrap this up and we take some breaks over the summer. We'regoing to be doing summer reading in our intrepid listeners may be interested toknow what books you, what the three of us are going to be reading H, you don'teven have to pretend that you're going to finish all these books, maybe you'lljust start them or just make a dent further into some of them. I haveseveral thick books and I know I'm not going to finish most of them, but justthen, let's start with you, what's on your shelf, that you hope to read over the next two months, not nota project that you for something you're, writing or studying, but you just wantto read and enjoy and have fun yeah I've got a number of books Coti into pipeline and appreciate the Caviot that we might not finish them or or oureyes might get attracted to other shiny objects along the way but um. So Iguess in different categories, a Steven Ba b, a Ugh has a big thick commentaryon letter to Ephesians and or pastored our churchis preaching through vesions.So I'm trying to read through it and...

...study through it Um it Wasa gohondrozzlings factfulness. This is an awkward time for this book. Perhaps butit's ten reasons we're wrong about the world and why things are better thanyou think things feel bad and going to worse. But it's a very emparically base book on just why everything you hear from themedia and Althe. It sounds like similar to t e great easterbrooks book, which Ihaven't read, but I like to dip into that Dane Ortlans book gentle and lowly Um.Some people might be surprised if I haven't read all the way through acrossway book, but you know we we acquired them Ye. He Wat a lot of bookYe. I wish eighty soven buks a year and obviously Danes books getting a lot ofattention and it's something I think ou can read through rather quickly becauseit's simply and clearly written, but I'm trying to read just a chapter timeand go slowly 'cause. It is really a beautiful and profound book I' The Fiction Fr. I don't read. ATENTOfiction and Um like a lot of us h, regret want to read more fiction, but August Wilson was an African Americanplaywright in the eighties nineties, who sought to writea cycle of ten plays about the African Americanexperience through the twentieth century each play taking having asetting in one of the sentries in one of the decades and I've read fences,and I just completed the one on Malrany, whichdenzil Washington is producing. alltent of them is films, Um and they, you knowall the caveads that has sexuality in it and has glass fhomme. But I want toread more about African American literature so also picked up JamesBaldwins. If peal street could talk so I've, I've just started that and andwant to get into that a little bit more um couple of others would be um e, Randolph, Richards, Paul and firstcentury letter writing on secretary's composition and collections, afascinating book on how Paul used secretaries, how he made copies of hisown letters, the expense that that cost him. What was actually involved withthe coauthors that he mentions in his letters, what implications that has foran eirancy Um. It's a really interesting book bowmentions in his efusions commentary that he wishes more New Testamentscholars would take his work into account, especially, as you know, withthe letter of Aphesians people saying well Paul, didn't write it because thestyle is different. The vocabulary is different. So that's one a little bitmore of a technical study that I'd like to get into more Um and then two othersUm John Lclaret. I've never read any of his spy novels, but I've heard he's thegreatest spy novelist ever so. The spy who came in from the cold is one thatI'd like to dip intwo and then finally, Christophercold walls, the age of entitlement, America, since the nineteen sixties formore of a kind of a political, a cultural analysis. So that's UH sittingin the pile next to me. If we check back in a couple of months, I probablywill have seven other books that I yeah R, interesting Tomeve it that's in theslesh file for right now, that's a great pile of books and H. I Ireally appreciate the disclaimer that you may not actually read much of them,but it's a good pile. I have a similar pile okay, I I'll sip through mine and thenwe'll give Calin. The last word is: He probably has some books on RussianImmigrants Meeting Swetish wit, threten INEZOTA, or something to hard wish. Ifanyone, if anyone knows about a book like that, I would reget it. So, justlet me know: Okay, I have ihave ten books on myshelf, but most of them are in the category of I've gotten part way through and I needto. I need to see what I can get from the rest of them, because I'm probablynot going to read through them slowly, but it's worth getting a few big ideas.So one of them is the myth of disenchantment, which is really it's a book about magic and science andreligion and how this idea that in the modern world we have had the triumph ofscience- and we have been disenchanted from the idea of spirits or the accultor talking to the dead, is a myth and he goes through. You know he think hestarts a story with the cures and he has lots of evidence to suggest that many of ourheroes of capital as science were far from disenchanted. They were intoastrology and talking to the dead and all and he's not advocating that that'sgood or bad. But as far as I can tell...

...he's making the case that we are notnearly as disenchanted as a modern world as we think we are sothat's an interesting book, the body by Bill Bryson I made about halfwaythrough that he's he's written a number of best selling books, and this is a he's just a wonderful writer, and so hegoes through every part of the body and tells you amazing, anecdotes and factsI got about halfway through then my wife took it and she plouged all theway through so I'll, probably h spend some time and see if I can finish thatoff. I also mentioned the morality of laughter a few episodes ago that I wantto I'll probably give that a quick skim through I'm partway through Amity Shlei's BookGreat Society, She's written in a number of these histories, an the newdeal or she have the book on Celvin coolage. But this one is on a greatsociety sort of a a history of economic programs in thesixt city in the sixties and she's Gong to be largely critical of what theGreat Society Actually Accomplished. I've also started and need to Ploug myway through as much as I want to John Turner's book. They knew they werepilgrims. This is the four hundredth anniversary of the pilgrims landing atPlymouth, rock and so Tommy Kit has a nice blurbon that this is the newdefinitive account. Have you read any of it Kevin Ye? Ihave yeah. Is it worth 'cause it's on my list. So should I keep going orstartit Yeah Yeah Yeah? You should yeah it's on your list. I mean it's it's you know it's going to be fair history,but it it's certainly not going to Romanticize the pilgrims but say: okay, weshouldn't romanticize them for Thanksgiving or their great tolerancenecessarily. But here are things that were genuinely impressive about whatwhat they accomplish and then I'll get I'm not going to go through all ten ofthe books. I'm looking out of my shelf I'll, give you then three buoks that Iwant to read more carefully. One is Harvey Mann'Sfield's book manliness. was He at Harvord so verycountercultural book to even write that there is such a thing, let alonedefinable thing or something worth commending called manliness, so I amreading through that and then maybe you guys read Andrew Roberts Book that cameout a year or two ago, his his single volume, Churchill biography, which issupposed to be the best churchill biography, I've. I've read a one or two others, parts of one or twoothers, so I'd like to at least make a dint in that a big book and thenfinally I'll mention McLay's book, land of hope and invitation to or to theGreat American story which I'm I'm well into it, and he he writes. Well, Ithink you know he's a he's. A conservative he's a university ofOklahoma. I think he's trying to write a story of American history. That is both something that can bind us together.THAC's a big one of his big themes is as a nation. We need to have a commonsense of story, purpose, identity, and so the name land of hope gives you asense for he. He still thinks that America is. is a place where peopledream and people want to come to, but he's definitely not in the camp of justpresenting one great hero after another he's very obviously from the Getgo is sayingthere are things about our history that are ugly and we need to own up to themand we need to acknowledge them, even if the ideals are ones that are worthremembering. So you know a Good Textbook Textbook, really doesn't do itjustice 'cause. That sounds boring, but I love reading American history and soI'm looking forward to moving through that book, mostly a political historyof the United States Dalin. What do you have on yourwonderful list? No doubt some good fiction books that we should have heardof. No, I learned my lesson last week. You guys really just made me look bad!No! I don't r fancy books, UM, no sheds, dogmatic theology, that's theother way! I love the Kevin. You give us reviews of the books before you'veeven read them, which I I I read. I read the introduction and I read theconclusion, but I haven't read: You know all the middle sentences. All Right: Well, I just appreciatedthat Um. I had Turner's book on my list, but realistically, if I just finishblight on Frederick Douglas and Taylor's sources of the South ThiSummer. Finally, that will be an accomplishment because wo, Oh man,those things are making me a long time...

...so other than that I'll just mentiontoo, and one of them is an obituary for wisdom, literature, the birth death, anintertextual reintegration of a biblical Corpus. I will kinds here at Samford University,so an I have to be able tcae O Isk. I I I'll tell me I work to Pak collen'cause, I okay, the tin Te nehw who's, the illustrator for that book. I don'tknow the pretty. I mean I don't know if we know what job looked like, but helooks out o get a long beard or ures is, is job ors, his supposed tobe Solomon, I'm not sure, but anyway, one of will's points is that the veryconcept of wisdom, literature is owing to especially German liberalism andespecially to antisemitism as well so he'v Talk you've done presentations onthis at arsbl things like that anyway or SB, O sustest, one all mention, andthen also Irwin, Nsus, the beautiful community, unity, diversity and thechurch at its best hopit. I can have erwent on as a guest m coming up on mygospel down podcast later this year, so we'll see, but those are just a couple,I'm looking forward to and yeah I just man. I just hope I finish, FretrickDouglas and Tebography, which has been good but OOF'm. It's big at sevenhundred plus pages did Y. U I just finishd th the three park series on thehistory channel of grant. Oh I didn't. I haven't watched you OI ye youll. Imean it really. It presents. You know he made mistakes in in battle and inlife, but it's definitely a very positive I think well deserve therealready are statues of grant and should be statues of grant. So it makes mealmost want to try the Ronchurnalbiography, but I didn't makeit through is Washington one, and so I probably wouldn't make it through. Iyou make it through Hamilton, 'cause, that's sitting on myself too. Now Ididn't okay, I know I thiron the play comes off Disney PLO, yeah justs,waiting for Disney Plusyeah, I mean Teei Lu mortions of all these fockerviews yeah when, when is come, Ou when is Disney, plus gonna help us getthrough the presidential biographys or the founding fathers showing July Thr.Yes, well, thank you friends for joining us and thank you these two goodfriends for talking about books, and we hope you have a great summer and hopeto be with you on the other side of some wonderful rest and reading andrecuperation, and hope that you have as much fun as we do trying to read somegood books Ntil next time, godless.

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