Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode · 1 month ago

'A Theology of Paul and His Letters,' with Dr. Douglas Moo

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Dr. Douglas Moo, theologian and professor at Wheaton, joins Kevin, Collin, and Justin to talk about his new and substantial contribution, A Theology of Paul and His Letters. Weighing in at 784 pages, there is a lot to unpack. Among the topics they cover are: how to balance text and tradition, the biggest change in Pauline theology, Paul’s instructions on the family and sex, the work of N.T. Wright, and how substitution makes everything work.

Life and Books and Everything is sponsored by Crossway, publisher of Good News of Great Joy, by John Piper, containing twenty-five short devotional readings from John Piper aim to help you keep Christ at the center of the Advent season.

For 30% off this book and all other books and Bibles at Crossway, sign up for a free Crossway+ account at crossway.org/LBE.

Timestamps:

What Thanksgiving Means in Michigan [0:00 – 2:12]

Dr. Douglas J. Moo [2:12 – 7:32]

Text and Tradition in Theology [7:32 – 15:17]

What is the biggest recent change in Pauline theology? [15:17 – 19:29]

Same Text; Different Takes [19:29 – 29:26]

Traditional Conclusions [29:26 – 34:05]

Women and the Home [34:05 – 37:45]

Sexual Mores Conflict [37:45 – 41:08]

A Glaring Omission [41:08 – 44:25]

On N.T. Wright [44:25 – 49:07]

New Realm [49:07 – 51:57]

Substitutionary Atonement [51:57 – 55:24]

The Gagging of God, by D.A. Carson [55:24 – 1:01:45]

Books and Everything:

A Theology of Paul and His Letters: The Gift of the New Realm in Christ, by Dr. Douglas Moo

Other books by Dr. Moo

For readings and salutations to ourwonderful life and books and everything listeners glad to have you with usagain and hope you're having a great day wherever you are listening to this,I am joined with Justin and Colin and I'll introduce our special guests injust a moment, but we're glad to have you with us again and we're glad to besponsored by crossway books and many fine books coming out. I can'tremember which ones I've mentioned before, but as we are now in November,and yes, it is now legal to play all the Christmas music that you want. No Colin Says No, why do you hateThanksgiving so much covin? I love Thanksgiving. Now I hear you, we don'tturn it on our house, but really you only get the chance at the Christmasmusic once a year. Why not have a few extra weeks Thanksgiving or as they call it inMichigan that another day the Lions lose? Yes, I'm restraining myself by notturning this whole podcast into just just kind of a play by play. Recap ofthe Michigan Michigan State game from Saturday. Was that not a great game? A ES bonus episode on that bonus,episode, yeah where's where's, my agent. Can weget Kenneth Walker? The third on here talk to immiment likeness, given yeah.That's right, okay! Well, we'll give them something all right. I didn'tmention the good nudes of great joy by John Piper, so this is one of obviously there's lots of paper books,but a great resource as you come into the advent season in a few weeks. Youmay want to look at that- and I think we mentioned before the ES ConciseStudy Bible, which came out in October and looking forward to using that sogood to have you all with us and our special guests today is doctor Douglas J move. That sounds veryimpressive. Can we call you Doug We's all right? Thank you and dog has a Ph d from the University ofSaint Andrews and he is a professor of New Testament at Wheaton and he hasmany many fine books out and we are here to talk to him about a new book, atheology of Paul and his letters, the gift of the New Realm in Christ, whichhas just come out from Zondervan academic. It's a very impressive workand we're going to hear more about this book and, what's in it and how he wrotesuch a big thick book and first we want to hear a little bit about you and yourlife ministry. Family dog tell us where you from and how did you get to be aprofessor at Wheaton Yeah? I actually was converted as a senior in college planning to God to go to law school atthat point. But when I became a Christian I decidedI wanted to figure out what this new faith was all about. So I changed mycourse and enrolled in seminary. Instead of Tunity of Angelical,divinity school did my masters of divinity. There hadthe opportunity, while I was there, both to work as a social pastor in alocal church and to teach a course at the seminary. I quickly realized that Iwould be a horrible faster. I would barricade myself in my office overpreparing all my sermons and avoiding human contact as much as possible.

Just who I was my gift at mypersonality. So, rather than inflicting myself on a port church, I decided togo out and do a PhD At said Anders and God's grace. I was able to get aposition back at the school. I did my work at Trinity, Divinity School taughtthere or twenty three years and then moved over to Weten, where I've beenfor twenty one years. Throughout that time, one of theanimating principles of my life and ministry has been a famous quote fromYohan, Aber Bengal Great Pie, ous scholar apply yourself wholly to thetext, apply to text wholly to yourself, and I hope I've done decently on bothsides of that others will have to judge. But if you ask what animates me, it'sjust my love of getting into the text and figured out what's going on thereand then finding ways to communicate that text, people, whether speakingwriting or in other venues. I that's great, I'm just curious. You talkedabout not going into pass from ministry and we- and you must have students comeup to you all the time help me Dr Move. How should I go into the academy?Should I go into pastoral ministry? How do you help students think through that?Well, yeah number one, of course, is just the objective criteria. If astudent wants to go into a PhD, we need to look at the well o well, have theydone in our course work here? What are their papers like? Are they have thequality that might fit them to pht work? Unfortunately, a lot of students have avision of doing a PhD, but maybe don't have all of the required kind of background or something to dodo the PhD right. Now it's a very tough market as well for PhDs to teachingspot very, very tough, so we're finding more and more of our own PhD grads.Looking at options working with a publishing house, you know as terribleas that would be justin can talk about that or slogan. Pastor, pastor, theologian,where you want to put the emphasis there or working in Christian schools so and of course overseas. There are sogreat opportunities overseas to serve in the teaching world. Just say alittle bit about your your family, married kids, Yeah Jenny and I are beenmarried for forty eight years. We've have five children all married thirteengrandkids, our children have scattered as far as away from us as possible. So tells you something about ourparenting or the child. Who's closest to us live six hours away and we havetwo children in Europe different parts of the US, but at this point in all the kids arefollowing the Lord. All. Their spouses are following the Lord Jenny and Idon't care that much where they live as long as they're living in Christ. Yeah,that's wonderful and we were just usually we start life and books andeverything with too many minutes of college football,banter or some sort of other sports banter, which is where everyone justkeeps hitting the thirty second fast forward on the podcast. What what sortof hobbies? What sort of things do you do for fun? I think I have it right.You're, an outdoorsman well to some extent Yeah Jenny and I do love gettingout in the natural world and we are both photographers. So, okay, wespecially enjoy photographing the natural world great well, let's transition to the book, andI want to start because this is a good segue from some of your biography tothe book itself. Here I am it's a big heavy, thick book. First of all,congratulations! This is a really significant achievement and I know the three of us all enjoyed spendingseveral hours. I can't promise that since we got the book a few days ago,we read the whole thing, but we did spend several hours pouring throughdifferent things and it's a great...

...resource at the very end of theconclusion. I just read: You have a little bit about your biography becauseI entered seminary nine months after my conversion. My seminary days becamevery influential and forming my theological perspective seminary Iattended Trinity Vangelical Divinity School was deliberately under the wiseleadership of Kenneth Conser, a broadly evangelical institution, with anattempt to represent various theological traditions. Nevertheless,the theology I was taught there was broadly reformational, with an emphasison the reform side of this broad movement. At the same time, myinvolvement with the Church I was attending and ultimately servingexposed me to the Baptist small, be tradition. I therefore emerged areformed, Sabati Reform Baptist somebody say submerged yeah, although the reformed parteventually was modified a bit with Lutheran influences. So that's th.Those are really helpful. Few sentences to sort of position who you are thinking about this book and just aboutyour teaching and scholarship in general, which is of the highest level. How do you balance, on the one hand,understanding and being transparent about your own theological influencesin tradition? And yet I see so many people today who just want to write offany sort of theological or exogenic l scholarship. It's just hide bound to some kind of ISM and notreally objective. So, what's the fine line is a scholar saying well, here'swho I am and where I come from and yet, as you said earlier, I absolutely wantto be as tethered to the text as possible, and we really do believe thatyou know we're not we're not hardcore post moderns, who think you can'tactually know some things objectively. So just talk about your own,theological, biogaphy and how that influences or doesn't influence whatyou do in this book. Yeah, that's a great question and it'san issue. All of us wrestle with, I think who are involved in the academicworld these days. I think there is a general recognitionthat none of us comes to the text with a blank slight and to pretend that wedo is simply to kind of hide the obvious or to attempt to hide theobvious we've all informed in certain ways, whether that's for formation at avery simple way, through Sunday school through parents through churches, weattend or formed in a more deliberate way, as I was because of the teaching.I received a trinity and elsewhere. So yeah, I'm up friend about that.That's I'm a kind of reformational guy. That's where I come from. That's whereI found over the years residence between scripture, the icestudy it at least, and the various traditions and again I would want toemphasize a wild reformational. I hope that I hope in I'm not narrowlyreformational and looking beyond that tradition, I think I do but then, asyou say, there is importance if we're going to do justice to the text, ifwe're really going to believe the text is authoritative, we have to let the text say we have toallow it to form our own views. We have to allow it to change the views we cometo the text with. That's where I think a couple of thingsbecome important number. One, obviously, is the Ministry of the spirit thatpoint. I think one of the purposes God gives his spirit to his people is to,in a sense, take us out of our subjective perspectives and allow us tosee a bigger picture, as the text has. An impact upon US second, is, isserious and charitable interaction with other scholars from other traditionswere reading the same text. I am...

...but are reading it from a differentperspective, and often you know you will have the moment where you, thisperson is drawing this conclusion in the text, how the world are they doingthat and then you back up- and you realize oh here's where they're comingfrom and here's why they can come to that conclusion say: Oh all right I can.I can see that now, so I've got a sort of factor that in or at least allowthat to influence the way. I'm reading the text. At this point, and of courseat that remains true not just for current scholarship but for scholarsfrom the past, so that an August in or a calvin or Wesley talking about thetext and their day and their context and culture have a perspective to bringthat. We need to recognize as well one more question for me before I throwit over to Colin in Justin Yeah. This is a big book, as I said, about sixhundred and fifty pages of text and then another hundred pages of different indexes, and you say at the beginning,I put I've, put a couple of exclamation points in the margin where you said,you first signed the contract for this book in two thousand and five. Yes,that's where reader, embarrassing! Well, Justin is just happy as a publisherthat you actually did turn it in after all those years. What was the processlike in writing? This book? Did it take all of those years? Is this? Are theselecture notes from courses put into print? How did you go about writingsuch a massive book in two thousand and five, when I signed the contract? I'dalready written a major commentary and Romans, so I had that kind of under mybelt and a lot of course focus on Paul there and it was theology. So it wasn'tthat when I write the throat the contract is the first moment I beganthinking about Paul Theology. Now that's been something I've beenthinking about teaching about for some time and since two thousand and fiveI've done a number of other things as well. I've written and published two orthree other books along the way. So it's not as if the only thing I've beendoing is Paul Theology. I learned a great deal by teaching and hearingstudents respond to things. That's why I have a long list of schools andchurches in my preface where I have taught Paul and Romans and such subjects,because I honestly learn so much from all of those students. I teach so that's been an important influenceover the years and some of you an know there is so much being written onPaul's theology. These days, my frustration over these years has beenfor every book on Paul. I read two more were published. So obviously, at that rate you're nevergoing to catch up, so I tried to do my best to take into account of all thedifferent scholarship that was going on. That was difficult to get my handsaround that and then to make sure that, at the end of the day, I wasn't beingoverwhelmed by other scholars, but I was being oriented to the text itself,so that's important, you don't get lost in the scholarship and simply site x,scholar versus wife scholar, but at the end of the day, very important,obviously to ground everything you're doing in a book like this in your ownengagement was a text, and I certainly try to do that. Well, dog. It's a good Segen to thequestion that I had planned here of a lot of people may be confused aboutjust the way scholarship works of what a dynamic process. It is an aniterative process, it is and and how many small changes can take place andthen how many dramatic changes also can take place, and now that you've beenteaching Palan is theology for so long, I'm wondering what would you say is thebiggest change in pauline studies from when he started writing this. But letus start with this book to when you finished it. But if youthink it's more interesting you could you could go back to the start of yourcareer. Well, yeah. Let me mention two momentsand one was long before I began.

Writing the pauline theology, but we'reall we were in most of us be familiar with. What's the so called Newperspective, which really got its beginnings in the late Nineteen S,early, neen hy so shortly after I first began to teach that shifted thelandscape of Pauline Studies in a quite significant way, so that was certainlyone stimulus for thinking about some of these things. In many ways, the new perspective, inmy view, is to be applauded for some of the emphasis they brought to the studyof Paul that had been neglected over the years. At other points, I fear thatthe new perspective would tend to undercut certain reformational teaching, so one of the things I'vedone in Romans commentary an and the Pauline theology now is. In a sense, Iguess I could say, restate fundamental reformational theology in dialogue withsome new perspective ideas, not rejecting them all and again,I want to be clear about that: it's not that I'm in the mode of rejection ofeverything that Jimmy Don or Tom Wright of setting I've got a lot of reallygood things to say that we need to take on board. Nevertheless, again somethings that were to be questioned along the way wanting I emphasized my students whenwe talked sarcoma new perspective in certain circles, a new perspective canbe sort of viewed as the bogy man. Oh, that that's a negative thing. Well,there's some some reason for that, but nevertheless the new perspective hasmoderated over the years Tom writs views have moderated significantly overthe years. He now says that if Calvin had been the only reformer, he wouldnot have had to have a new perspective at all, for instance, quite out a bold statement which isprobably yeah Col right in hyperbole, but but never set, and and that, if you look at the broaderlandscape of Pauline study since I've been writing, the theology come to getback to your question. Specifically, the soul called Paul within duty is amovement has become very influential, which is much more radical than the newperspective. So, with respect to that movement, you know Tom Right and I willwill agree. I want to make some of the same points. Paul Within Judy is M.Movement basically says Paul himself remained observant to the torethroughout his life and taught that Jewish Christians should remainobservant of Tora, also throughout their lives and in some more radicalforms of the movement. Even it is argued that salvation for Jews is to befound within that Tora Covenant that God gains a Jewish people, so so here Ithink we have a much more radical challenge to Orthodox Christianity,Rongli defying not just reformation here, but Orthodox Christianity goingback even in the early centuries there. So so that's one of the movements.Certainly that's it's become popular of late- that I think needs response, andhopefully I've given some response to that in the book just did once you go ahead and jump inwe've heard from our many listeners. There's been an outcry. I need more cowbell and I need more J T. Well, we don't want to disappoint thelistener, so I jump in a dug. How? Maybe this is a follow up from the Polwithin Judaism, but talk to our listeners a little bitabout how two different scholars can read the same data at the same text. Wehave a limited amount of material for Paul, but we're using the same tools to cometo the text and yet can come to such radically different conclusions. So youread Paul and see the Mosaic Law is Etor. Is The the Covenant Lawh and thatit's not to be directly guiding...

...believers and the politan Judaismviewtapes a radically different view, one that would be more applicable to us as Evangelicals you and Colin, and I read the textcorrectly. That baptism is to be restricted to believers and someonelike Kevin reads that babies are to be baptized. How is it that we we can cometo the same text and have the same tools of analysis and presumably beopen to the guidance of the spirit and an not wanting to let the traditionguide us where the text doesn't take us and wewe don't read things the same way. I know that's the A pretia question, but how would you talk us through that sure?What what we need, of course, is a Protestant pope, I'm happy to run for that office assomething to vote me on was this a conclave. ThenI guess you know again as Mananon O. that'swhat what some of called the Protestant problem? Isn't it that we have the lackof that kind of authoritative structure to determine doctrine, and so we end upwith all these debates disputes differences of opinion about variousissues. I think it's important to distinguish between those matters thatseem to be pretty rooted in the Orthodox Christiantradition and those that aren't so. I would see this that salvation isto be found in Christ alone, for instance, as as pre fundamentallyrooted in the tradition. That should be something that that hassome guiding influence doesn't have determinative influence, but it doeshave, I think, appropriate guiding influence, so there I'm going to wantto I'm not going to want to disagree with the Orthodox tradition. Unless Iwant to throw that tradition overboard and, of course, a lot of scholars dothat, then there are these issues where,within Orthodox Christianity, over the years, there have been these differentviewpoints. You mentioned baptism, for instance, how do we read the Law of Moses? Towhat extent, for instance, is the Sabbath Command still applicable?Orthodox Christians have disagreed about that there. I think we have torecognize number one that the effect of our traditions can be significant,where we're coming from can have an impact on the way we sort of read thetext which text we give priority to, and then I think there is a great needfor a charity of that point. For humility on our side. US recognize. Idon't have all the answers. I need to find answers in conversation with otherscholars, from different traditions and viewpoints and again to disagree in a charitableway so that we don't create unnecessary barriers among us. I continue to thinkthat's one of Satan's most important strategies in fighting the Orthodoxfaith is to divide us and to get a squabbling together fighting amongourselves rather than fighting some of the Big Isms out there thatChristianity needs to confront in our day so dug. I have, I think, it's a relatedquestion, and this is something that Colin just and I have talked about alot and you can feel free to say. Oh yeah, I see that or I don't, but we'vereflected before that in broad scope. It seems like the last. Maybe ten years,or so at least in some of these controversies, and maybe intramuralsquabbles you're, talking about some of which are very important, some lessimportant, but it seems like there's, been a movement away from arguing aboutthe text and exogenic Al Conclusions...

...and the argument has shifted to historyor sociology. I have a PhD in history, so I m, I believe it with all my heartand the importance of history, but one of the way one of the areas I think yousee this most clearly are some of the debates about just to use the terms complementariesGalituria ISM. How do we understand Paul's the household codes, hisinstructions and first Timothy, and whereas you know even fifteen twenty five yearsago, it seemed like they were very intense debates about autant in orCafila or how to understand the the syntax and the dynamic it seems likesome of those exegetical debates have been set aside in favor of more Metasort of historical sociological critiques. So I wonder iff if you andyour position as a bonafide new testament scholar since this. What dowe do about it? Is it something you've seen something? That's frustrating Iwhether you agree with whatever conclusions are not, I just wonder ifit's frustrating to see hey e. These are issues that are not unattached tohistory and all the other disciplines, but they need to be rooted. Ourconclusions need to be rooted. First of all, in what the text says. At leastthat's that's should be our posture as Evangelical Christians. How do younavigate and pull together some of the different ways that these controversialissues are being argued about now versus a generation ago? Yeah? I think you're right about that.In your analysis, I read a paper at Dallas seminary several years ago,which I entitled the strange silence of the text in the Evangelical Church, but borrowing the title from a book by a man named smart because I agree, it seems, like otherkinds of issues, have tended to push out the issue of the text, and you know,as you raise the issue of a compotes Ternis, we have some key text. Thepastoral epistles related here that illustrates a couple of things numberone I should have mentioned this in responseto the question a moment ago. Very fundamental issue is which lettersyou're going to count as Paul you're. Writing a pine theology you've got tomake that decision, because in the academy seven letters of Paul areaccepted as clearly authentic and very often theologies. That of Paul arebuilt only on those seven epistles with some reference, perhaps here andthere to the others. So obviously, if you, if you selectyour database in a certain way, you're going to come up with differentconclusions, so that's a fundamental decision you have to make. So you knowI argue at the beginning of my book that I think all is the author in somesense, at least of all thirteen of the letters attributed to him and that ourtheology fallow needs to be built squarely on all thirteen, not pickingand choosing one or the other, because that's how some of these Moraniaconclusions sometimes emerge. You pick and choose evidence. You dismissedcertain letters as unpaling or Dutera Palin, or you view certain texts asscribal additions to the text that Paul didn't write and, of course, when youfollow that procedure, then it's pretty easy to come up with almost anyconclusion you want now. The problem that I see here isthat our ex a Jesus always takes place in the context of these largerbackground issues. You know what Paul says about certainissues are naturally going to be affected by the culture to whichhe's speaking so when he tells the...

Women in First Corinthians eleven towear the veil or to wear their certain hair style. I think all Scot are most goners atleast recognize okay Paul's, addressing a particular cultural phenomenon ofwomen, wore their hair or did her to not wear the veil in his day. That has to affect the way weunderstand the tacks and the way we apply it. The point, then, is that ourex desus can never be separate from those broader concerns about backgroundand culture of the time. So the point here is to make sure that, as we usethat background information, we don't allow it to sort of have ruling powerover the text and that's where the balance is needed. Yeah, I have to readevery text in the light of its context and situation, recognize that all ournew testament text, all pauline texts- are situational affected, but I need tocome up with also clear evidence from the text itself for the direction it'swanting to take us. Then there's a balance there and I agree good carefulex o Jesus as tended to get shunted aside a little bit in some of the morerecent discussions of these kinds of issues. So let me ask a follow up andthen I'll have call on and just in jump back in, but I think this is accurate. You cancorrect me if you don't want to own any of these labels dog, but I would say inmany points you with the highest academic acumen, end up landing on for lack of abetter term. Traditional conclusions so, for example, did Paul receive a call or a conversion.You say: Well, it was, you know, certainly a as an element of a call butlet'ss not miss that there were real elements of a conversion onhomosexuality, you're careful to say. Well, this isn't the only sin weshouldn't make. It seem like an unforgivable sin, but paul does saythat same sex intimacy is is sinful on some of the issues related to to menand women. Again you're with a i would say, a gentle touch are showing thedifferent views and not wanting to be extreme in application, and yet youland in a traditional place. I think that the household codes still areauthoritative and paul's instructions and first timothy to are not simplyrooted in the time they are, but they're, anchored in trans culturalthings for insict justification. You make a very strong argument forjustification as forensic only language, even when you talk about is the gospelreally code for anti imperial claims. You say well, yeah, someone mightunderstand it that way, but there's not a lot of evidence to suggest thatthat's mainly what's going on. So i agree with all of those and i find themvery helpful. I wonder if, in your work, as i would say of you, know very wellrespected scholar, do you get pushback coming to these conclusions? I mean,obviously all scholars do. But what is it like? As you in many of these controversial areasreach, i would say traditional conclusions: how are these received?How does students handle them? How to you know s bl other sort ofprofessional organizations? What's it like to be dugmo in these worlds? You know here's where i have to confessthat i've probably not engaged with the broader sweep of academicscholarship as well as i could have.

Yes, i attend things like spl, forinstance, where you get a wide range of scholars. Talking about things. I havedebated people like tom wright and those kind of scenarios a number oftimes over the years, but i've not spent a lot of time thereand the fact is, i think, all of us experience this. We can receive a lotof affirmation as long as we are speaking and teaching to our. Likeminded friends, you know. Well, i can think i'm. I'm must be this really gurukind of guy. Sometimes i go to certain places where people just oh dug moveshere, he's teaching us and the reason for that is because they're coming fromthe same stream of tradition than i inhabit and of course i can getaffirmation from that. The question is again whether thataffirmation comes from from the broader world from the broader perspective,scholarship from people that differ from us, and that's where i have to youknow again admit that perhaps i am overly traditional, perhaps i'm overlyinfluenced by the tradition i was taught in and raised in and sin gladfor all of your traditional conclusions. Well. Well, thank you. You see again, icould come on a podcast like this. Oh these guys, like me, you know latelyyeah, that's true, keep doing what you're doing and- and i don't make any apology forthat. On the one hand, i feel that's been my calling i'm not this, this inventive, creative scholarwho is developing new ideas and theses and in very interesting ways, i'm kindof a plotter trying to give exogenic ground to whati think are theological views that have been argued by some good people in thepast and shouldn't be thrown overboard just because they're from the past.That's you know the chronological snobbery that see us lewis warns usabout that. Only the latest view is the right or the important view where therehave been certain certain views argued in the past. It are very well by it bypeople that we should have a little more respect for maybe than we do yeahvery well, but justin we jump in here dug with the question,was more specifically on the family and women in the church on chapter twentyfour, you you say this line and i think our readers would or not our readers.Our listeners would find this suggestive and helpful. You say ratherthan viewing paul's advice about the home, women and institutions of theworld as unfortunate accommodations to the structures of the world of paul'sday. We may instead view them as a response to an unbalanced appropriationof the all one in christ principle. Could you impact that a little bit,because i think yeah that will be a new way of looking at the issue for somefolks, yeah and again, this is where i'm alittle controversial. I think when i have, and let me i'll explain wherewe're i'm going with this in a minute, but when i tackled the slavery issue inmy writing a commentary and fyleman, i came to realize that t. There is sometruth to the idea that some have argued about a kind of trajectory that we needto follow in reading the ant. On some of these things, i think it's again challenging to us at least that whenpaul addresses christian slave owners, he doesn't tell them to free theirslaves and if slavery is immoral evil. Whydoesn't he say that? So i think there is something to this trajectory ideaand when we think about that, in terms of pause teaching on women, then moving outside of the specific exogenicl evidence to the larger sweep of teaching. I think we can come up withkind of two main ways of reading paul number one says paul is setting atrajectory of liberation that we need not to extend in our dayeven further than the new test of explicitly does so. There should be,for instance, complete quality and marriage. Women should not berestricted from any kind of ministry roll in the church, because that's thedirection the text is taking us...

...the other way to read some of thesetexts, and i should say that that text that seem to limit that are texts thatsimply are saying for now. Christians should follow a culture of their day. Let women be submissive, let wise besubmissive and so forth, because that's the culture they so, let's build thosetext talking about submission are simply culturally bound restructure, sothat that's one way to read the restrictions, the other way to read them again. I sto see here paul, responding to an overly enthusiastic kind of liberationmovement that people taking the the great paulline slogan of one in christ, which is important and fundamental, and we darenot, you know, take anything away from what paul means by that. But taking itto a point where okay, men and women are fully at the same level in marriage,they have women have had the right to do. I think they want to in the churchand po say no, you know i'm wanting to pull you back from that a little bit atyeah. There is a new, liberating spirit in christ for men and women equally,but that liberation teensy does not overturn some of the role relationshipsthat god has built into his creation of men and women, something i think again,two fundamental ways you can read those restrictive texts. I think again thatthe light paul grounds is restrictions in scripture in the ot and not just incurrent culture. Help me to move one direction on that. Let me ask you related question alsocomes from chapter twenty four, which is living in the new realm and just forour listeners. Of course, we encourage you to get this book. It's laid outreally helpfully. The first half goes through all of the pauline epistles andi would think for pastors students, people leading bible studies- that'sgoing to be a real, really helpful section, of course, they're shorterthan commentaries, but they're longer than in introduction. You might get atthe beginning of a commentary. There they're nice chapters that walk throughthe different themes and analyze the different book by book, and then thesecond half of the book have these chapters all centered on the new realmand ear on page six, thirty one you say, discussion of marriage leadsnaturally into some words on sex in paul's day as in ours. Sex was an areain which biblical standards clashed especially harshly with contemporarymorays. We are not surprised, then, that he warns his gentile convertsabout their conduct in this sphere of life. As i noted above, sex is the areaof sinfulness that paul most often mentions in his vice lists, so to partquestion: why was it such an area of conflict in paul's day and what are your thoughts, metaphysicallyor otherwise? Why you think it continues to be such an area ofcontroversy in our day that the sexual, the way we live our lives sexually, isone of the the clearest demarcations for paul between living life in christor outside of christ. Why was that yeah here here? I easily can get intomatters that are far over my pay grade, but it does seem to me that that youknow sex is a powerful impulse rooted in us and that it is not unexpected. I guessi would say, therefore, for the sexual impulse to be very significantly affected by theworld view. We hold h- and i think of...

...that god has built that sexual impulseinto us, but it is so powerful that it easily becomes unrestrainedunrestricted expressed at all kinds of ways thatthat counter what what scripture talks about is the boundaries we are toobserve. So i think that it's not surprising that in paul's day as inours and of course, in many days in between that that has become aparticular point of friction for us, because it kind of expresses ourhumanity and where our fullness comes to expression easily and clearly so yeah in paul's day again, that was afundamental difference between the jewish christian perspective on sex andthe pagan perspective in our post christian world. We see the same thingwhere many of the debates we're having right now have to do in one way or another, withsex or gender, and again that's not surprising oncethe jewish christian world view is leftbehind yeah. So i mean one of the things the dog that i love about thisbook and just for listeners we're talking again about a theology of paulin his letters, libica theology of the new testament with doug mo, and there were things that should be reallyobvious, but that i somehow hadn't thought about till you pointed them outand one of the things i wondered. You know fairly early on the book. You askthe question, or you observe that paul doesn't often cite jesus's teaching oreven his life apart from his death and resurrection. What do you conclude to thesignificance of that? From our perspective? Perhaps omission yeah. It's a good question these, the kinds of questionsthat i hope people don't ask me you'll. Think after after fifteen orsixteen years, you know working on politely teach it in various ways thatone would have all the answers. You know and i think the one thing perhapsi've learned more than anything else in writing. This book is humility, unanswered questions or at leastquestions that i still don't have a satisfactory answer to, as i would liketo have, and to be honest, that's one of them again. I think we can offersome explanation. Paul is teaching christians most of the time who don'thave any clear roots. You know in palestine or in the history of jesusduring his lifetime. Obviously, in palestine, for paul death and resurrection ofchrist are so fundamentally earth shaking and transformative thathe reads his ethics out of those events more than anywhere else. At the end ofthe day, though, i still think it's a little surprising pull doesn't quotejesus more often than than he does. He just doesn't do that one point to be made. I think i makethat in a book is, of course, that sometimes simply quoting a person isnot the best way to reflect the. U sometimes you best sort of reflectpeople's views by absorbing them yourself into your own viewpoints andteaching that in expressing them in your own words- and so so here is, ithink, the most important point that i didn't have time o the book to do thisas much as i would have liked to you know you got to the end of the book andsay here all the things i didn't do i wish i had. Then it would have been atwelve hundred page block of draw clear connections between jesusteaching and paul's teaching. That's the most important point for us. Ithink that that, ultimately, what paul is doing in this theology isorganically connected to the teaching of jesus. It grows out of jesus ownteaching perspectives and that's the most most fundamentalthing here. I think and that that i...

...think argument could be made very wellone. One, quick observation on that yeah because he mentioned he does notquote paul, does not quote jesus very often, but the irony here is that oneof the times he does quote jesus at two thousand and thirty five. It is betterto give them to receive. If we don't have anywhere else, that's right, yeah! You done that. Go ahead! Just talk to us a little bit about ant rightand his influence, because there's there's a certain set of folks who readpauline scholarship and someone like tom wright work has broken out beyondjust the the nerds among us who read pullingmonograph for a living. So i'm thinking here of a pastor whohas younger people in the r to are reading right and what does he getright? That pun is often used and abused, and what does he get wrong?What i one of the things that his work, his ones, that perhaps others haven'tand where are some places where you would offer caution to especially theyounger christian, who is enamored by his brilliance and his ability to wardsmith and to offer synthesis in a way that feels like nobody else is seeingthis or saying this. You know just a. I think, i'm going tohave to decide not to answer that directly. Itwould be very hard for me here off the top of i had to come up with any kindof a list of things he gets right and things where i would want to quarrelwith him. I would say in general that and again i know that that not everyonewould agree with this so set i'm very thankful for time right, because i think he has ability topresent the fundamentals of the gospel and various contexts where people arehearing that gospel through him is a real gift to the church, and iappreciate that again, as i said before, i think i respect him for having moderated someof his views. Over the years. He's listened to people, and iappreciate that about him. Yes, there are again points where i disagree withhim in terms of where i think he unnecessarily creates issues for traditionalreformational theology that that he maybe not t doesn't need to do so. Myadvice of pastors would be don't read, time, wright and isolation. If you'regoing to read, write on a subject, read someone else also on the subject, soyou kind of get a balanced perspective yeah. I really appreciate, i think you do that really well in thebook dog. No one can read this and think that you don't appreciate the brilliance andthe many fine insights that in t write his head and he's written so much andat various levels. You know there's that old joke. If somebody calls upthomas as yeah, i'm trying to get a hold of tom wright and the secretarysays well, he's he's writing a book at the moment. Can you hold for fifteen ortwenty minutes? Okay, come right back he's just cranking out books, but, forexample, you know you talk in chapter nineteen about the story of israel andyou say rights, israel still. An exile scenario rightly draws attention to akey dynamic in the story of redemption. This pattern of sin, exile, restorationand that's. I remember when i was in seminary twenty years ago now, readingright, and that was a really big insight that we were reading a israelthey're still an exile and there's something to that. And yet youhopefully go on, and i won't quote the whole thing, but you suggest forconcerns and one you say he shifts the emphasis from geographic to spiritual.Other concerns you talk about in of...

...exile is a much more complex realityand you say: paul's discussion of sin is more universal on the one hand andmore individual at the same time, so just seeing israel and exile can makeit seem like it's just a national component and this isn't applicable toall of us who need redemption and all of us, universally and individually, who aresinners. And so i commend you for that, because you're pointing out- and this way ithink right- has been good to remind some of us hey. Where does this parable?Where does this story of jesus? Where does this fit? Don't leave the story ofisrael out of this, where what is jesus doing here in israel's national storyand yet i think you're right to draw us back and say that that's helpful and tothe degree that we're looking forward to yet unrealized blessings, there's something to this exilelanguage, and yet we really need to be careful with it, which leads me. Iwe'll just have a couple more questions dug. Thank you for giving us this timeand talking about this book. The sub title is the gift of the new realm inchrist. So i don't know if you'd say a new realm is is a centering idea thatword center, you say can mean different things, but obviously it's a it's a keyconcept for you and that the second half of the book, all the chapters haveto do with the new realm. So what do you mean by that? And why do you seethat is so central to paul's thought yeah? This is again a fundamental kindof methodological issue when you're trying to figure out how can isynthesize the thought of paul expressed in thirteen letters writtenover probably around fifteen years to different churches on differentoccasions den with different problems. You've got this this i this this thiswhole mess as it were of paul all over the place. How do you synthesize thatand in order to synthesize that i think you need to figure out some kind offramework, a framework that hopefully arises tosome extent from paul himself is not just imposed on him. Over the years ihad, i had just become convinced- and i taught my new testament theology classalong these lines at waitin for many years on testing out the idea that it seemed to me that this idea ofrealm transfer was was pretty fundamental in the way paul wasexpressing his theology, the contrast of the old realm of sin, death andsatan, and the new realm dominated obviously by christ, righteousness, newlife and so forth, and that this gave us a really nice framework and ofromans. Five is a key place where paul, i think, expresses this idea and iwould expand from there at the romans, five or rat as a whole, where i thinkagain, we have a key pauline text using that terminology. New ram alsohelpfully connects with the theme of kingdom from the teach of jesus as mostidentified kingdom, as perhaps the most important cetera idea in the teachingof jesus. And, of course, there are a number of old testament. Scholars wordargue that kingdom of god is fundamental to old testament theologyas well. So i think rome has the virtue of arising from some things. Paul issane and connects us with jesus and the ot in all it. It has its limits, ofcourse, and so i hope i recognize throughout the book places where weneed to move beyond that framework or add a different kind of perspective tothat framework in order to do full justice to paul two final questions, one morespecifically about the book and then one sort of broader question. You go on in a very helpful sectiontalking about substitution and why,...

...looking at the atonement assubstitution is a key pauline idea and one that holds the others together, andyet you talk about various objections to substitution. I know it's alwaysdangerous to try to to try to impute motives, but i wonder, besides the the exogens critiques, to object tosubstitution, which i think you respond to very well, do you have a thought on why this seems to be a perennialobjection? Is there something at a deeper level going on? Why is it? Itseemed like every generation, a new group of books or articles needs comesout saying. Well, this whole idea of substitution- and i now that that's not really whatwhat paul's about here and then people like you need to come back and say well,actually, that's not the only thing he's doing, but everything else kind of needs to have substitution to work. Whydo we keep? Having this same conversation, i suspect they're, a variety of reasonswhy that that issue comes up. Let me just name one where here we haveanother in a sense question that i didn't come up with aneat answer to, and that is the s i read paul and people like michaelgorman and recently years have really emphasized this, as he read pals clear that he has agreat emphasis on what we might call participation. How do we gain the benefits of christ'swork? We gained those benefits because we were with him. We died with him. Wewere buried with him. We are raised with him that participation, al logic seems to to stand in some contrast tothe substitutionary logic, and so one reason why people wonderabout substitution is because they find in paul legitimately this really greatemphasis on participation. That's what paul is fundamentally trying to teachthat's what he is thinking about in terms of the work of christ on ourbehalf and again, if you pursue participation in a kind of full andfinal way, there's not much left for forensic substitution. So i canunderstand that, and i try to deal with that in the book. I ultimately don'tcome with to as need a conclusion, as i would like to, and i kind of end upsaying both are clearly there in paul. There is the forensic logic of christdying in our place and for us, on the one hand, that's clear, i think in paul.There is also very clearly the focus on our dying with christ to gain the benefits that we have inhim. Both thoses logic are there in paul and the question. That is how tointegrate them and some scholars choose one or the other. I am in the mode, as my wife would be gladto tell you of the wishy washy charlie brown type, where i want to say yesboth and both. Are there no good? Let me finish with this dog, and this comesfrom a friend of yours, a friend of ours, don carson written several years ago inthe gagging of god and he's reflecting on mark noles book. The scandal of theevangelical mind, which is always seems to be in people's conversation and don, says he finds much in the bookthat he finds helpful and he says, there's certainly an intellectualshallowness among many populist approaches of some leaders, but then...

...don turns a bit. He says i worry lessabout the anti intellectualism of the less educated sections ofevangelicalism than i do about the biblical and theological illiteracy orastonishing intellectual compromise. Among its leading intellectuals.Evangelicalism has many sons and daughters whose primary vocation is thelife of the mind, writers, thinkers scholars, academicians, researchers infield after field. They are not inferior to other thinkers in similarfields, but with rare exceptions, they have not made the impact they mighthave, because their grasp of biblical and theological truth has rarelyextended much beyond sunday school knowledge in the main they think likesecularists and bless their insights with the odd text or biblical cliche.They cannot quite be accepted by the secular guilds unless, of course, theykeep their mouths shut completely about their faith and they cannotrevolutionize intellectual life in the west because they do not think likeconsistent christians who take on the status quo and seek to replace it withsomething better. The a curson gagging of god also published by zondervan, onethousand nine hundred and ninety six page, four n, eighty three and eightyfour. If someone wants to find it so don's argument, there is yes, there isa poverty of intellectual life among many rank and file christians and manypopulous leaders. But he says his even greater worry are for the evangelicalintellectuals that they not lose their biblical moorings and their consistentchristian faith. So you can answer it on a broad level or on a personal level.What do you see is necessary, or what have you done in your own life, dug to maintain these high intellectualacademic standards, while also retaining your personal, vibrant, walkwith the lord and your commitment to biblical truth through and through wel? That's a wide, ranging issue youraise and just off the top of my head. I think i've got three responses, one, while not disagreeing with dawn. I would want to affirm the reality ofmany collings of minded wheaton, forinstance, in various fields of study who are or extremely faithful their christian faith and who areworking hard to keep up with. What's going on in the christian faith, one one faking member at we ten in in the sociology area, asdone two degrees in the graduate school in theology and ex o jesus, forinstance, and i had the privilege of teaching him and greek ex a jesusclasses and so forth. So i wouldn't want to. I would want to recognizepeople like that who are yes, intellectuals who are integrating theirfaith very well. To you mentioned, maybe i should haveanswered. I should have said something about this to an earlier question. Youask about certain issues that are not given kindof exogenic l focus as much as they should. One of the problems here is inthe pastured. It seems to me, as we are moving more and more into pastoraltraining that ignores greek and hebrew and careful excuses. Many of ourgraduate programs, now training passers, are dropping the languages preach it soso passers could go out with an ability to to lead to be the ceo of the churchas it were, but they don't have the capacity toreally deal with the word in a significant in depth way and naturally,that's not going to figure prominently in their preaching or theirperspectives. So that's that's. That's a problem for myself. Personally, i find that. What helps to keep me ontrack, especially, is my wife, my...

...family and my church. Yes, my colleagues and waiting aregreat people who encourage me both intellectually and spiritually, but for me, over the years it's been mywife with her. You know, faith that encourages andkeeps me on track. My family, my kids. I now have a son who is a professor ofnew testament and a son in law who is a professor of testament, so so they keep me on trackboth from intellectual and and spiritual perspective and then again,the life of the church. I try to be involved in my church. I teach sundayschool regularly in my church and just the faith of what we might call theordinary believer often is a lesson, and even a challengeto some of us who are in the academic aria very well said. Thank you dug forjoining us, colin justin. Thank you for asking good questions as well. Onceagain, the book just come out by zonoree ic, a theology of paul and hisletters, the gift of the new realm in christ by doug mou who teaches atwheaton. Thank you so much for joining us and for this book, which is reallyhelpful, and i know all three of us will put it on our shelves and plan touse it and consult it. Thank you for your commentary and romans and otherfine work as well. So thanks for joining us dead than thanks for havingme and listeners, we will be back lord willing in another couple of weeksuntil then or if i got, enjoy him forever and read a good book. A.

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