Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode · 2 months ago

Afghanistan, Olympics, & Mars Hill


Catching up with friends after a long summer is one of the great joys of life. In this first episode of Season 4, Kevin, Collin, and Justin chat about some of their summer activities as well as some of the events that are currently happening in our world. They range from the serious (How should we pray for the Church in Afghanistan?) to the silly (Cornhole must become an Olympic sport!) You will discover some intriguing book recommendations too.

Life and Books and Everything is sponsored by Crossway, publisher of Rediscover Church: Why the Body of Christ Is Essential, by Collin Hansen & Jonathan Leeman.  

In Rediscover Church, Collin and Jonathan discuss why church is essential for believers and God’s mission. Through biblical references and personal stories, they show readers God’s true intention for corporate gathering: to spiritually strengthen members as individuals and the body of Christ. In an age of church-shopping and livestreamed services, rediscover why the future of the church relies on believers gathering regularly as the family of God. 

In partnership with 9Marks and The Gospel Coalition, Crossway is planning to distribute 400,000 copies of Rediscover Church to Christians throughout the US and invites pastors and leaders to request 20 free print copies of the book (with free shipping) for use in their churches. Offer available while supplies last

For 30% off this book and all other books and Bibles at Crossway, sign up for a free Crossway+ account at


Welcome Back [0:00 – 1:04] 

20 Free Copies of Rediscover Church for Your Church [1:04 – 4:12] 

Praying for the Church in Afghanistan [4:12 – 12:55] 

Field of Dreams Game [12:55 – 21:55] 

Olympics [21:55 – 32:01] 

The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill [32:01 – 52:05] 

Summer Book Report [52:05 – 1:07:09]   

Books and Everything: 

Rediscover Church: Why the Body of Christ Is Essential, by Collin Hansen & Jonathan Leeman


Churchill: Walking with Destiny, by Andrew Roberts 

Reading the Times: A Literary and Theological Inquiry into the News, by Jeffrey

Faithful Presence: The Promise and the Peril of Faith in the Public Square, by
Bill Haslam 


The Gospel according to Daniel: A Christ-Centered Approach, by Bryan Chappel 

Daniel: An Introduction and Commentary (Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries), by Paul House 

Hearing the Message of Daniel: Sustaining Faith in Today’s World, by Christopher J.H. Wright 

Keep in Step with the Spirit, by J. I. Packer  

In the Kingdom of Ice: The Grand and Terrible Polar Voyage of the USS Jeannette,
by Hampton Sides 

After Humanity: A Guide to C.S. Lewis’s The Abolition of Man, by Michael Ward 


Ancestors: The Loving Family in Old Europe, by Steven Ozment 

Justifying Revolution: The American Clergy's Argument for Political Resistance, 1750-1776, by Gary L. Steward 

Heralds of God, by James S. Stewart 

For readings and salutations are wonderfullisteners welcome back to life and books and everything after a summerhiatus we are back, I can say we're better, never bubbly are back and I'mjoined by Colin Hanson and Justin Taylor and it's good to have a bandback together, as we are going to spend some time today, just catching up alittle bit on the summer, we'll talk about things when they have seen orlisten to he hit on a few current events and, ofcourse, as we have time, we'll talk about some book so glad that you'rewith US looking forward to this next season, which will stretch your at theend of the summer through the fall or Willin the end of the year and be threeof us and sometimes it'll, be one or two of US and interviewing others. Butwe're looking forward to at least the three of us getting the chat, and maybesome people listening. We are sponsored again by Crossway, so grateful fortheir partnership and the many good books that they put out- and we want tomention one today near and dear to our hearts, rediscover church and it is coauthored by Colin and by Jonathan Lemen Colin, tell us a little bit about thisnew crossway book, which you have coauthored, so this book has actually been in theworks for a long time. Jonathan I've been talking about a basic book thatyou could give to anybody in your church to be able to introduce them towhat happens in the Church and why it happens that way, God's vision for thechurch, but that vision was really renewed with what we saw last year withOvid nineteen and, of course it's on going here, and so we've talked about this since ourpodcast began. I really haven't seen any situation like this in our churches:The the division, the tension, the exhaustion, that we feel over racialissues, political issues, ovid now vaccines after masks on and on and onand on and on and this book we're hoping is going to be a way that churchleaders can help unite their congregations around the gospel ofJesus Christ and God's vision for the Church. And so we cover everythingabout outreach to membership, to discipline, to the ordinances, to allthat kind of stuff, and so we're I mean we're excited about that. We think thetiming is is right. We also deal with things like virtual church and livescreaming, and things like that. But we're excited about that. But I thinkone of the coolest things is what crossway has done to get behind thisbook. I working along with T GC and with nine marks and so between todayAugust. Sixteen in August, thirtieth crossway is going to be sending twentycopies to every church. That requests one there's a way to find that throughcrossways website through t GC through nine marks and yeah just free of charge,they will send you send in your information I'll, send you twenty threebooks, physical books, we're also translating the book right now intotwenty different languages, because this is a shared situation around theworld. So yeah, it's been in work for quite a while, but it's really reallyexciting. Right now and and so while supplies last up to I mean it's prettyamazing to say, but crossways generosity means that up to fourhundred thousand people will receive free copies of this books. Pretty it'spretty amazing. So thanks to crossway and excited to see what what God mightdo with the book to help churches and crossway really is generous and know, there's lots of good people doinggood things, but I'm always impressed... how crossway really does want tothink of ministry. First and above all else. So thank you and thank you foryou and Jonathan working on that book. There's a lot of things we can talkabout and as we're recording this- and I imagine this is still going to be thecase and the next day or two whenever this comes out. But Afghanistan is allin the news- and this is not a podcast where you tune in to hear US pretend tobe experts in foreign policy, but such a tragedy unfolding in real time with thepersecution already under way. It seems, and certainly threatened of Christiansand churches, not to mention women and children and others who sided with the US governmentover these years. We're not here to get to sort out foreign policy woes, but Ijust wonder at the outset before we move on to other things, since this is front and center right now, if thereare thoughts, lessons or even just ways that youthink we can be praying for the church in Afghanistan. Anything as we getstarted, Justin yea. We are called to pray for the persecuted church to prayfor our brothers and sisters in Christ and, of course, we're called not onlyto pray for fellow believers, but for the world that those that everyonewould be able to bow the knee and confess with the tongue that Jesus isLord. So this is a great opportunity for us to pray, a great opportunity forus to love our neighbor, even our spiritual neighbor, who is far from us,but what a unmitigated disaster it seems like these days, there's suchdifficulty finding any common ground politically on the spectrum, and thisseems to be one of those rare events where no matter where you are on thethe political scale. You can agree that this is horrible. You know, whatever your views oninterventionism and just or etc, the way in which this came about and theway in which we carried out this policy. It's just producing large scale,disaster and tragedy. So our hard should go out. We really should lamentand weep with those who weep and it's a helpless feeling. Of course itjust an ordinary citizens, not like you can cast some vote. That will changethings right now or do much of anything. But praying is something, and sometimes Ifind myself saying that that sort of thing like I wish I could do more thanpray but prayer, something that we could do that other people can't do they don't havethe resources spiritually to appeal to the Living God to act on their behalf.So let's pray, let's keep our eyes open and I keep our hearts tender towards.What's going on there. One of the things that it does throwinto stark relief is how many blessings we have in this country, whateverfaults and failures, and in the last few years, every one from every anglehas had plenty of things to be critical about in this country, and yet you seenow, I know to be better than the Taliban is a pretty about as low a baras you can have, and yet you see that civilization as we have come to know itin western prosperous. Basically, free countries is not the norm throughouthistory and it's easy to think that the civilizational default is human rights, fair elections, transfer of power, acriminal justice system which which bends and has imperfections but works most of the time and rule of lawand do process and religious toleration.

All of these things that we can thinkif we're ignorant of history, you know what, if you just sort of leave, peoplethat that's just what happens and that's not what happens, and it'simportant for us to remember whenever we're criticizing the form of societyor government we have now which were right to do, but we always have to aska question compared to what, because if the comparison is perfection Utopia,heaven well, if everyone were angels well, we can look forward to that asChristians in heaven. But that's not the alternative. What is thealternative compared to what, and certainly things can be, there's athere's, a big sliding scale between Western democracies, constitutionalrepublics and the Taliban, and yet hopefully, maybe it will help all of usto one appreciate many of the blessings that we have andhave had for many many years and Lord Willing are extended to more people andmore people now in this country and those freedoms will be protected, andit also shows us sometimes how our you know. There's there's that jokethrowaway line first world problems, you know I've people said it to me.I've said to my my kids: Is there complaining about their shoes wearingout after three months or something and they need new shoes first worldproblems, but it really is the case that sometimes- and I guess Ross out at-might call this a cultural of the culture of decadence, but the sort ofthings that we get animated about the sort of things that we think are lifealtering, absolutely soul, crushing, and then yousee the Taliban, you realize just how horrendous and egregious and sinful andas many bad words as you can pile up, humans can be, and it gives us pausenot to exaggerate our own suffering, our own offendedness and also,hopefully, leads us to give thanks for the many things that we do have, evenas we pray most importantly, as Justin has called us to so rightly any otherthoughts. Collins, we get started yeah a lot of times. My instincts areto think about the political ramifications of something I wonderwhat does this mean for elections? I wonder what was the trumpadministration thinking when they negotiated? I mean that's where my mindgoes, but this is a different reaction for me this time and I'm not I'm notsure why. I just noticed my my attitude about things really changes as I getolder and one of these areas is I and may change by the time this podcastcomes out, but I just wonder: Where is our president? I want. I want to hear from thecommander in chief. That is not a political thing I want to know. I wantto know what's happening. I want to know that somebody is. I want to know that the soldiers thatwe've deployed there are not going to be surrounded and cut off. I meanthere's, there's a lot of questions there. So for me, I'm not my instinctsin this case, even though I wonder about those things, it's not primarilyabout what does this mean for Republicans or Democrats or trump orbide in or midterm elections or re elections, or what are the Republicansare going to challenge by and what are they saying, and so I just wonder as anAmerican, I I'm I'm worried, I'm not that worried. For my personal safety,that's a luxury that you just talked about there Kevin I'm worried for mypersonal safety, but this is this is disturbing and I'm just worried forthose those people. I watched Ken Burns, Vietnam Documentaryand I was born. You know we were all born after Vietnamand so just watching the way everything played out with the end and the fall ofSagon and everything- and I guess it...

...just confuses me for for people likePresident Biden who lived through that of I want to know, what's going throughhis head as he sees this and what his plan is. So I hope that comes across the right way,but I just did it's concerning. I wonder where is the President Yeah? So please, I'm sure more informationwill be out and by the time this is out there, but Justin's absolutely right. That prayingcan feel like a throwaway, but it's absolutely not, and God hears thoseprayers and we are commanded to pray for our P, persecuted, brothers andsisters and just sharing the bonds of humanity. Ofcourse we pray and don't want anyone to be tortured in the sort of absolutelyhorrendous terrorist activity going on. So we pray for that when I back up and there's no greattransition from that, but is the first time that we've been doing a podcastfor several months and we've had the the summer and we'll get the boat blowby blow, but we all like sports and that's some of our listeners, and soyou can be patient if it's not your thing, but I know we were texting lastweek with the field of dreams game. So there was the movie back in eighty nineand it's it's a movie about Fatherhood as muchas about baseball, but it is a sort of a strange movie, but it's a tear jerkerand it's become sort of etched in the American Pantheon of movies. I guess-and so many years in the making. They had this game right next to the setwhere the film this in Dyersville Iowa, first Mater League, baseball game,Yankees and white socks, I'm a life, long white sox fan born on the southside of Chicago great outcome. For the White Sox and they went out to lose twoor three of the Yankees, but we don't care about that. They blue to lad, cameback Tom Anderson great script. The ambience was, I mean I am not a crier, so I didn'tliterally cry wasn't like when you know I wept tears over Mile Cyrus's careerdirection. Now I didn't I didn't actually, but but I was watching it andfor a Dutchman I was I was. I was getting the feelings I was gettingmoved and it was overwrought, but it worked and the music and the KevinCossonerie- and I felt like- and I tweeted this I felt like. Maybe therewas just a little glimmer, a glimpse of some some pieceof Americana that we could celebrate. There was an Ostalgie, but it was alsolooking to the future. You had teams that are filled with white and blackand lots of lots of Hispanics and Dominicans, and you have a great endingto it and it just it felt like something that everyone was excitedabout. I urban meets rural and a simple fun in let alone that Iowanswere there. So I loved it and it was nice to see something that seemed likejust grown men playing baseball they and that's sort of the spirit of themovie. They really seem to think this was really cool and to hear Joe Bucksay and another one into the corn. I mean it was a great tag line to seethem and did you hear they had to go in after they'd had a storm and they putmetal rods in the corn out there. So it would look proper. I mean well well done mlb and well done IowaJustin. I can't believe you fled your own State to Chicago when this washappening. Yeah I've never been to the field of dreams, and I don't reallylike baseball. So I'm a great TRACTU LLY got a text I think from Kevinsaying like how can you be out of town,...

...because I went to Chicago yeah duringthat and didn't know that it was coming? Butyeah dier fills about four hours, exactly east of here on Highway Twenty,and so I could drive by it at some point and get all the nostalgia and crylike a Dutchman upon a view of corn be o the hole, you're really killing thevibe here, Joe, I think even what's wrong with America. Did you listen toJames Erl Jone Base Boll? I do I mean one of my thoughts was itwould be great to age as well as Kevin Costner. Has that would be kind of l onthe weal do wish we were movie stars and had those lers in those resources. Even he had the untucked. Don't know ifit was an official UN tucket they can be in a sponsor, but it I mean it justit just looked good and I just think yeah our midwestern flare would not carry aswell afraid did you enjoy the spectacle? Well, Imean, I think, our love, our listeners, love hearing fromyou guys. You guys all know that we were midwestern guys and and and it does have a special residence. Imean I I played. I played baseball, surroundedby corn fields. Growing up, I played baseball. I played football with with corn stacks flying in ourfaces, and things like that, so there's going to be a special residence there,and especially also I mean I was eight years old and field. O Dreams came outand I I re watched it recently. I don't think I was even thinking about this, but that movie hits you completelydifferently as a dad yeah. It does completely differently as a dad,especially when you're, when your kids are playing baseball and thinking thatway and yeah. So I just I was really impressed with whatthey did the moment of them. Walking out of the corn, a Wilson that waspretty was pretty darn cool and I'm, like you, Kevin in that I thought of itas is kind of a template for some thingsthat can work if we're trying to figure out a way to move forward in unity,because no one wants to go back to that time of the early twentieth century.For a variety of reasons. We want things the way they are in terms of thethe people who get to play. I was just at the Negro Leagues Museum in KansasCity this last weekend and how exciting to see Aaron, judge and Tim Anderson BeHeroes in that game. So nobody wants to go back to that part, and yet there issomething that we can recover from the past. That is unifying and isbeneficial and part of that's the continuity of the game of baseball inthe inclusiveness of baseball. Now, especially as it spread and in the wayit comes in a D and it spread to a place like Japan of all places and- andI think that's something that's worth celebrating and building on, and I'mjust at a stage of life. When I see something like that, I put the Olympicsin the same category when I said something like that, I want tocelebrate it. I want to appreciate it for what it is. I want to just enjoythe game and I don't want to try to pick it todeath which, by the way, is a good way to watch the movie field of dreams. Donot think about it too. Much now do not try to be logical about it andthat's just kind of Silin here I want to appreciate it for what it is, and Iwant to start dreaming about wow what if they came to America's oldest ballpark, rickwood field in Birmingham, what if they did a game there that'd begreat anyway. That's what I was thinking Kevin Yeah. I think there isthe if there's any way in which we havesome semblance of unity as a country and healing to use that term.

I it seems to me it has to be in nottrying to move back to the past, but but not telling people. You have to eradicate the past orhating money for hating it, and so I showed you an article that somebody hadwritten. That was more largely negative about the eventand, and his whole argument was were celebrating an event that celebrates amovie that celebrates a baseball player who comes from a time in major leaguehistory when African Americans weren't even allowed to be in the sameintegrated league. Well, that is true actually, and we can lament that, and yet that seems aprofound mistake to me and no way to move forward to essentially say a movie because it has shoeless JoeJackson as a central theme, and it comes from an era where America was racist and asegregation and baseball was not integrated.Therefore, anything from that gone same, I I mean the logical implication ofthat is untenable, unworkable, not justrationally, but just from the human spirit. You can't just say that thatpart of history, you can't have it you can't like anything from it. You can'tcelebrate anything from it. We have to be able to say what is good, what isgood but still imperfect, and but we're not saying, let's get in the timemachine and go live there, and everything was great if we could justbe back with. You Know Charles Kamis, who seemed tobe a horrendous person, as he was the owner for the white socks, so I enjoyedit, especially as a sox fan in the home run, but you mentioned the Olympicsjust in Colin I watched tons of Olympics. It's one time say: I'm I'mnot I'm not going to feel bad. I'm going to turn the TV on. Let my kidsstay up, we're going to try to watch as much as we can. What were some of the high points forthe Olympics, for you guys Justin did you watch it? Did you know it washappening? I don't know where you paying attention. Did you see that Iknew it was happening, but I'm like a terrible cost today for these topics. Ionly Watchi thought you like sports you're, just unlike huskers it forsaying he's been just it's just huskers and Justin fields. Those are the onlythings that just in Taylor cares about. So you didn't watch the Olympic. Youdidn't pay attention any. I hardly watch it. It was interesting to seesomebody speculate on twitter why the ratings were so terrible for it. Youknow. Is it because of cord cutting with people not having cable anymore isbecause of the time differences? Is it because of knowing in advance? If youwanted to know who was going to win or lose, was it some of the fanes elements? Yeahno fans to it. I mean just changes the dynamics. I know you really enjoyed it,but it just kind of felt like work to be able to go and find it watch itinvest in it. So I didn't watch very much at all. To my Kevin Chagrin. Shame on you all right, the RussianOlympic Committee to Collin that four hundred meter final, I meanhow hurling yeah the hurdle. Thank you and I yes exactly. Thank you. I meanI'm not going to pretend I'm not like Kevin Kevin and s and his kids. I meanwho actually know running, do this and are good at it competitively read themagazines all that sort of stuff, I'm just your I'm just your show up andWhoa there's a guy from Norway, who's really good. Yeah he's been getting acoming more home. Okay! Well, that that that's fascinating, but also oh, butgosh, but wait a minute. So he breaks...

...the world record, but so does theAmerican injamin yeah exactly, which is absolutely amazing, and I think I don't know if it's because of Covinnineteen again, I don't know if it was because I have kids, but I have a agreater appreciation for sports, which seems kind of crazy. That I wouldpeople who know me, including you guys, would know that I love sports already,but I really cherished being able to see all of the the human stories thatthe competitiveness drawing the best out of people rising to the occasionimproving themselves pushing the boundaries of what's possible, but also,I felt like there was generally a lot of a lot of camaraderie among theathletes, even within rivalry, including with war home. There stillseemed to be: I mean that you could tell there was clear rivalry, but thesame time there seemed to be respect and there was it was pushing, and so Imean I typical for where we are as a country right now. Every thing wasobsessed with Samon biles and in a few I mean nothing wrong with some onebiles being obsessed with her she's great, but just the her decision. Ithink it should have been an opportunity for us to just talk abouthow how we shouldn't take these things for granted, how fragile it is mentallyand physically and again. This is something probably because I get older.Now I'm struck not only by the people who succeed but now and the underdog stories, butnow I'm struck by the by the people who fail and and the parents who are thereand all they've invested in the devastation, especially with theOlympics, every four or this case five years, sometimes a false start or oh,exactly lip or a drop and you've been working agony. The agony of defeatseems to stand out for me than it used to, and I'm not so much judgmental,including in a Simon Balls case, I'm just more sympathetic of like wow. Youwork so hard every day. So much has been invested in into this for this onemoment and then it doesn't happen helps you appreciate, greatness becauseyou're able to see how fragile it can be, even with the greatest of all timeand smoots yeah yeah. When I we won't talk about the day that Kevin de youngtried to break the Internet actually a but I was on vacation and the timingwas bad. I didn't know all that was going to happen on the same day, butwhen I tweeted then a couple weeks later, and I just trying to make lightof it and said, did I miss anything on the Internet, and I did see thatsomebody wrote or tweeted at me and said well.Basically, half of the country is really mad atSemon biles right now and the other half is really mad at you. That was they're different. They didn'toverlap. Who was mad at Son Yeah? So I just in once you figured out theschedule. If you would have looked up the track and field schedule, you couldhave got the exact start time for every event, Justin, and you realize that thetiming was actually pretty good, because the evening events in Tokyoaired live here central time from about six in the morning till eight thirtyand then the morning finals aired about eight to ten thirty in the evening, andso we were able to watch it. Swimming and track are the ones that wewatched almost every second, that we could. What was your highlight? Whatwas your hat? Was your favorite part, so because, yes, we are a bit of a track and field, we know no person, butwe know all the names we follow. We we're going to watch the Diamond League,I'm sure this there's a whole track season out there, folks, the DiamondLeague in or it's the prefontaine classic all in Oregon this Saturday,you can see Shikarry Richardson's going... race the one hundred against thethree Jamaicans who won lots of good people still raise. So we follow thisstuff and there's certain of the American Olympians that we've really come tolike. So I think Mo is amazing. Nineteen year old,wow, southern Sudan, family immigrated, but she's lived almost or maybe herwhole life in New Jersey. She is amazing, yeah. The four hundred hurdles on thewomen's side, sit name mclachlan, who acquits herself very well and seems tobe giving a you know: Wonderful, credible profession of faith and gloryto God in the midst of this, and the Little Mohammed is really professionalabout it. So I love watching the two of them as they go back and forth andbreak world records. Almost anything and some of the I mean and the swimmingside. Caleb Dressel is the you know on the male side, the American who winsalmost everything that he's in, but he hadn't won an of the individual goldand when he did his first here's this big, huge hulking sort of guy and he'sjust a flutter of tears and but of joy. So that was even moving to me to seethe genuine expressions of joy and as cheesy as it seemed at first. You knowthey would set up a little screen and you would you would see your family back home watching you and to see onthe Olympians immediately when they saw their family or heard their family ortheir home town, cheering for them just tears in joy and how much it meant to have otherpeople in their family who couldn't be there in person. Those were those were touching moments, so Ienjoyed watching it and I would have to imagine the ratings aredown for all those reasons. Just and people, just it's not it's not like.Even twenty years ago. Okay, everyone click on NBC and let's Watch this, youhave it's diffused across several NBC platforms. It is unless you go lookingit's sort of hard to tell. Where can I find? What's happening, live what'sgoing on and people just have, it does takesomething away of the energy of you're all cheering I mean you could stillhear you know a handful of people in the crowd. So I'm always sad when theOlympics go the Winter Olympics. Just ah I mean that's something, but a lotof people just flying down hills of ice and let's shoot things and ski around, butit was. It was great. I enjoyed it. Okay, I we shall have just now that Isaw on twitter that they're talking about making corn hole into an Olympicfor which, for you know, midwestern middleaged, guys, there's a there's, a wave of hope, switchingsweeping across the heartland right now. Well, I told you that my one of my sons,how old is he twelve said, and I think they should make Spike Ball Olympicsport and I don't think we need horse trotting dressage. That was pretty cool. Thatwas really I that was one of the like highlight clips in there. I will, Iwill say anybody who doesn't think corn holes and Olympics fort, which okay watch cur like tell me how curly is l sall that different for Cortho and with the same demographic of people. We seemto succeed in it. Yes, what is pigegians line about smokeabout bowling? If you can smoke while you're doing it, it's not really aLogodoro, you know. Well, it was what's it fors, Johnson's line of few Olympicsago that when the UK was winning said, we reallyexcel at sports, where you're sitting down because they looked and they were goodat you know, rowing and cycling and anything that involves you can remainseated uk the bridges were really good at it.I wonder just at this could be a whole...

...podcast unto itself, but in Colinyou've already weighed in publicly at least on one of the episodes, but Iknow like many people, we've all been listening to the rise and fall of MarsHill podcast that Mike cospetto is doing and doing very excellently. What are your quick takeaways? What do you like about it things? Youdisagree about it just in what do you think yeah, like many listeners, I'mriveted to it and can't wait till the next one comes out, and I hope that'slike kind of like life and books and everything I imagine we're if we're anhour late people are just is all over US online. By the way, I've had twofemale friends say to me independently. Oh, I love your podcast. I fast forwardall of the sports parts, but so welcome back to the they're gonna love they're,going to love there on my soliloquy to corn, about how many wonderful thingswe owe in life to corn. Okay, we'll do that another time, but just BONISepisode, Yeah! We should do this live from the Corn Palace in Mitchell someday the enchanted down museum b blizzards at the DC across the street.Oh that's right! Now, you're talking rise and fall of Mars Hill. It's I think for the three of us: It's notan academic, abstract arms length thing to listen to because all of us new markat some level and had some involvement in the the movement that he was a partof. So it's interesting to listen to something that you. Actually it's notancient history to us or listening to you know a podcast on the Jesus peoplewhere we didn't have any intersection with any of the players. So it's sad and it's, as you said,Kevin Mike, does a really good job. Just apart from content, he the narrativeflow of it the fact that you can actually listen to people. You knowthis could have been a serialized set of articles or it could have been abook but to actually hear Mark Boys and hear other people talking about theirexperiences. It's very very interesting, and it's very sad I think, especiallywhen you put together things that have happenedover a couple decades and compress themtogether to hear some of the outlandish and abusive things that he said kind ofplay. Those back to back. I think, in terms of judging how the whole podcast holdstogether, going to want to reserve judgment until Mike's able to completethe whole thing because he's going somewhere and he has more episodesplanned so in people are dissecting it on twitter. You know why isn't hetalking about this? Why isn't he interviewed this person, and so we'llwant to wait to see kind of where I going here and what sort of angles he'sgoing to cover in the future but yeah, as you said, Kevin we could devote anentire episode just to talking about this podcast Callin, your quickthoughts, yeah quick thought. So a couple different things. One of themis that if you're looking at this from a Christian media perspective whichwe're all in in different ways- but I think we're going to see a before andafter this podcast, this will be revolutionary in terms of Christianmedia when you're one of the top for podcasts in the entire world, which this is that's, that's quite athat's quite a statement, and so I would say this is probably the biggestphenomenon I've seen in Christian media in the last eleven years, so that sinceveggie tails a sense details exactly so. So it's a big deal to be able to showpeople within a Christian space. The...

...power of narrative podcasts. So we'regoing to see a lot of imitations of it that are not going to be nearly as good.I do think that this is a perfect storm. It's a perfect storm of Mike'sAbilities with Christian today's investment in it with that particularstory, which Mike knows really well personally, which it gives him a lot ofability there. The timing that it took to be able to do this, and also the thebroad appeal to people outside the Church of all different kinds oftraditions to former angry. You know grew up evangelicals disenchanted toreform guys like us who want to know how it plays out who lived with it. SoI really just quite a phenomenon. Second, I will say in the church insome ways it's going to be before and after this podcast, because just a widescale we're talking six hundred thousand plus listeners on this thing,the wild wide scale listening of it at congregational levels. Elders pastorsmeans that this is going to be in the in the ether as people think aboutleadership in the church, and so I don't know quite exactly what all theimplications are going to be, but it's certainly going to contribute toprobably a very healthy skepticism towards certain types of leadershipthat we've all seen tolerated too much. But it's going to have some bad effectsas well in terms of of bringing heightened skepticism toward properabute uses a biblical authority. That's one thing so well it's that kind of abig deal, but one last thing just to say is so many people. I see them really wrestling with thesethings for the first time because they just didn't know this stuff. Of course, we've known a lot of this for a long time and so you'll see a lotof people and you've seen a lot of people talk about the need for areckoning in the church. I would actually say that it's not like thispodcast is introducing these concepts or forcing this that reckoning actuallystarted as far as I can tell in two thousand and ten, so this reckoning's been going on foreleven years in terms of people like us talking with debating praying aboutarguing over the implications of all of this stuff happening and the othersituations that you know that could be the could be the fodder for futurepodcasts. So I don't. I hope that actually comes as an encouragement topeople, but this is not like Oh yeah and then for a decade or something likethat. It just sat dormant, no actually had a lot of people spending a lot oftime. Trying to think about the implications of this. I don't know whatyou guys think about that. But that's one thing I just I hope yeah. I knowyeah I'll, just give a few quick thoughts.Number One. As you already said, the production value is is hi. Everyonerecognize that the way it's Malcolm Gladwell ask that's very high praise ina weaving together, original archival, footage and interviews and Mike is a isa good narrator in between. So it deserves high praise for that. It'svery well done it's riveting. I know when I get relatives and grandparents and peoplewho are asking when the next one coming out, it's hit an audience that wouldn'tnormally just listen to a podcast like this number two you talkedabout stories. I think your right Colin. I think we will see many other storieslike this. I mean they're somebody's...

...somebody working on the CrystalCathedral and Robert Sheeler is someone working on bill highballs and WillowCreek. There's all sorts of someone just going to do something like thismore broadly on reformer, surgeons, young restless reform your book. Well,I my book Colin, but I'll, give you credit for right, or it was JamesMcDonald yeasaid. So I think there will be many others, and some of thosestories will be worth telling and some will be told well and then some won'tsand then third category here. Yes, there's a lot of lessons and maybe whenit's wrapped up your right Justin, maybe we see that the total pictureworth revisiting on this podcast, some of the lessons from it. Certainly wesee many the elements of Marcella as acautionary tale, so I think for the most part I know I would you know Mikebetter than I do. I don't know if I've met him before Justin, but for the mostpart I think Mike has been trying to be really is trying to be fair with hey alot of good things happened and mark said a lot of. I mean some of theearlier episodes. There's a few of them. I had to remind myself, but they hadthe story ends badly because wow that was courageous, I'm glad he broughtthat up. I'm glad he said that I'm glad he was willing there and when you werein that moment, especially if you didn't, if you were just you, didn't,have a front row seat, you had a bleacher seat. You really saw well this yeah there's some bombast and there'ssome. I wouldn't say things quite the same way and there's a edginess, butwow mark is saying things that need to be said and he's saying the rightthings and he's coming down on the right side of an Aran, cy and propitiation and all sorts of andreform theology, and so it's easy now to want to say who knew what when andhow could people let this happen? Oh and and at times he seems really humble, to learn and tobe a part of other people's lives, and you don't know everything, that's maybe happening or when there was a change, so I think Mike's done a nice job oftrying to present the genuine positives along with many cautionary tales of you know, poor leadership, and I meanthe the the episode that is m the hardest to listen to and probablyraises the most questions, and maybe one that we might. I would at leastdisagree with some of the framing is episode five talking about men's andwomen's. At times it seems like the only criticisms were coming from theleft and that hey is complementariness. Really the problem here when there weremany critics, especially when the marriage book came out in those talks,started coming out criticisms from the right, but I hear what you're sayingjust into to let Mike Finish what he wants to do and who he wants to talk to,and sometimes it's a product of WHO's willing to talk to him on the recordand record with things. So that's the other thing is I sometimes the framingof the issues. I would put a different way, but it is a riveting story. Thereare many cautionary tales in there. There are also genuine genuine works. Imean I have a friend who was there for part of it and he has a hard timelistening to it, because his experience was mainly good and what he learnedabout Jesus and things that were helpful in that context, and then thelast thing I say- and this isn't maybe so much a criticism of thepodcast as it is just a caution for each of us in our human hearts. I knowI can feel at times. I don't, I think, there's a place to tellthe story. I think there's a place to tell people's private interactions, butit does feel it's right on the the knife's edge for me, Mark Driscol isstill a living human being he still doing ministry. I don't knowwhat it's like. I hear things that...

...don't sound good but he's there andhe's a real person and not just a historical artifact, and so it seems one thing to publicly critiquepublic statements and sermons and books and other things, and not that it's outof place to hear people's private stories and telling what happened. ButI just I just have more of a caution, because I know that hey I have storiesI could share, and you know what there's people who could share storiesabout me that look good and don't look as good. Hopefully would not look asbad as some of these stories look. But I just want us to be careful in ourChristian hearts that there could be a way there could be a ay that were drawnto the story, as one is drawn in a worldly sense, to anykind of soap opera to any sort of juicy tidbits about someone's life and aboutthe things that happen and that's not Necessari ly wrong. We gravitatetowards stories, and we learn from those stories, but just a caution thatwe don't end up. We don't want to foster a sense of gossip or everybody. WHO's got a private story.To tell let's hear it am I being overly sensitive to that caution? Well, one I mean, I think, that's it'sanother topic that we could do a whole episode on, and I wonder if thatdistinction that you make between a living person and subject and a deadperson actually is a legitimate distinction. In other words, why is it?Okay, I've read some stuff about Abraham, Lincoln that Abraham Lincolnwould be mortified that anybody passed along, and I don't know if it's ahundred percent true, but somebody said it back in the eighteen s or whatever you know. Why is that? Okay, but it'snot okay to say private stuff now or should we use more discussion even inour historical word, I think it's a really tricky subject to think throughI clarify I was just gonna say I wasn't that's agood point and I wasn't saying that if someone dies, then you can say privatething, my point in March and mentioning that Marcus to living person. What'sjust to give us just to give us some some heart levelpause that we we are talking about, a real human being who professes faith inChrist for whatever massive flaws that we can point out it just it's easy tothink. That's, that's not a real pers. So that's all I was saying about thatthat Mark Driscol is not just the the fulfilment of all that is went wrong for a period of time andevangelicalism, but is a real person with a wife and kids and and a humanbeing. So that's one issue and then yeah the secondary issue is yeah. Whendo we do the public in private so go ahead? Justin? No, that's it's an important reminderand how to think through. All of that I think, is just complicated, because Ithink I can imagine people listening to this and thinking. Well, that'sprecisely the way in which abuse threat people don't talk about what theyexperience in private. So I think there's a legitimate point there and wedo need to think to I'll just say from my own heart: I've have to thank God for people who areexposing abuse. You know it has kind of lurked beneath the surfaces and beencovered up in the past, and there are people who are working diligently tobring the evil to light of day. And yet my I could find my own heart drawntowards things that obviously seem like gossip and that my heart is moreinclined to read about what some pastor did terribly than what some pastor didwell and so that's for me. It's a heart...

...issue and probably all of us need tothink through. What are we inclined towards? What are we? You know whatgets our juices flowing to some degree? Yeah, that's it! I don't have it solved,that's what I was going to say: Justin was, I don't know about the living ordead distinction, but I would just we know that this is getting a lot ofattention because it's like a car crash, it's just it's so mangled and horrific.You just can't turn away, and so, if we want to say this, podcast is good andnecessary because it's going to help root out abuse in the church. Well, Ican certainly say God using it to do that and I'll give thanks for that.We've we've been in a situation where so many of us, I can see myself in thisat least, have tolerated Christian leaders whodon't show basic qualifications for leadership that God lays out inscripture. So if it has that effect that I'm grateful, I could also saythat if what we need is a podcast to be able to help us to root out abuse or toshow how to avoid that, I could also say I could introduce people to dozens.We all could dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of pastors, who wouldbe positive examples of how to not do this, but see, of course that would never getany attention. So you really can't separate the car crash element of thisfrom the lesson from it, and that's just I don't know if that's our humanhearts, our media ecosystem, I'm not really sure, but that's what it isright now. I don't think we're disagreeing just and I just want toclarify again less somebody hear me saying: Yeah Abuse Victims shouldn't speak outthat that's that's not at all what I'm saying, I'm not saying that in life,nor my saying that in this podcast and just like a good journalist would spend months oryears and uncovering a story and talk to victims and get their story and andthings that it's not that private things are offlimits for public knowledge. What I want to say is, I guess I put itlike this. I think I put it very personally practically I thought well, no one reached out tome. I'M NOT A! I mean I was in for some of this, but I don't need to not anecessary voice in this podcast, but I think what someone said. Would you wantto come on and do you have any mark driscol stories? I think Mike's doing it better thanthat, I'm sure, but if that was it I think well yeah. I could. I could share a couple stories and Icould give you my three or four anecdotes and it might. I don't know that that wouldbe appropriate or would be helpful or would be the best way. Just everyanybody got a story about hanging out with Mark Driscoll andsomething he said in particular, something that was bad or that's. WhatI'm saying is, I think, a danger lurking in the humanheart when you do something that is focused and could become just anopportunity for so most of the the the podcast isn't likethat, but there've been a time or to where there's a long story about likewell yeah. That seems pretty pretty bad and puthim in a bad light, and I just find myself Hey, give me more of thosestories and there's something in my heart that I want to be cautious aboutwhen I start getting that feeling. Well, this word on that... ill. What you had last word to be all right as we wrap up life and books and everything wehaven't talked about books. So were you guys able to read some books over thesummer? I know you're both working well. All of us were working on somedifferent writing projects and that may be took up a lot of their time, butColin give us a few books yeah this summer. So I know we've talked about thisbefore, but I want to encourage people again that audio books are a majorsecret that can help you with your reading. I know some people don't thinkof it. That way, and- and I do a lot of reading- that's not audio books, but I have beenin a season of the most intense writing of my life and it's been. It's beensomething, and so audio books have been a real blessing during that time, andso one audio book that I appreciated was Andrew Roberts, Churchill walkingwith destiny, which we've talked about on this podcast before so spent thissummer. That's an eleven hundred page book, IT'S A thirty put! No, maybefifty hour may be. I think it's a fifty hour audio book, but yeah that's, but that was that was great. It's everybody saysit's great. It is great second, two books that that I did readand that hopefully I'll be able to talk about it. MyGospel bound podcast, but one of them is Jeff Jeffrey Bill, brose reading TheTimes, a literary and theological inquiry into the news. If listeners outthere have appreciated some of the comments that when we often discussmedia and our interaction with media, including podcast here bill bro isdoing that really well from that perspective, one of the best books I'verun a long time that DIREC relates to to my vocation and all of ourconsumption and use of media in this in this time. So that was that was thatwas great and then next month, I'll be interviewing. Former Tennessee GovernorBill Haslam about his book. Faithful presence, the promise in the peril offaith in the public square really appreciated him when he was inoffice and was very popular and successful in office and as far as Iknow, as a member of a PC, a congregation, if I remember correctly,Kevin but you'll re you'll, recognize faithful, presents from James Daves onHunter's work, a to change the world from two thousand and ten. But thisbook is a it's coming full circle to what we talkedabout of discouragement. Confusion in politics is helpful to see a devoutChristian reflect in very thoughtful ways about how to lead through electedoffice. So three three books I really enjoyed reading and then, when I listento over the summer good just in w. What have you beenreading? Yeah? I haven't read this summer, so I just getting. He didn'twant e didn't watch the Olympics, he hates baseball, he didn't read. I don'tknow how we're friends, but it's all hot pears, all the time I was able to get into a few books, I'm reading multiple books at once,dipping here and there at a spiritual level, Brian Chapels Book, The GospelAccording to Daniel a Christ centered approach. I was kind of surprised whenI picked it up and realized. I had a blurb on the back of it, but it's timewe made the whole thing. Paul Hal has a tindal commentary on theold test on book of Daniel, replacing Joyce, baldwins and Christopher Wrighthas a commentary. Christopher Wright is a really good writer. I don't followall of his stuff on mission, but his books of the Old Testament, if you everpicked them up, are really good and they started. This sermon he's abonifice scholar but has a sermonic touch as well, so Daniel S, one ofthose books. I get the big picture of...

...what's going on as it gets into laterchapters and gets more eschatological in terms of prophecies. I couldn'tdefend the Amalia view, which I hold so just want to in terms of spiritual work. Work through Daniel crossway has justrepublish. You guys have probably noticed this several books by John byJI, packer, also by Frances Shaffer, and what we've been doing there is taking books that are published byother publishers that are in paper back and license sing hard cover editions tothem doing it in the crossway type setting with crossway hard covers withjackets. So on vacation. I brought keepin stuff with the spirit by packer,which really like Mark Jones description on the back, where he callsit polemically Irenic. He says, seeking to promote peace inthe church, packer also desire purity. In this book. He offers an argumentagainst certain opinions of the spirit, with a greater goal in mind: The peaceof God's people as the Shear, a unified understanding of the Holy Spirit's work.If his irenics is the end, his polemics are the means Mark Dever blubbed the boot to, butit's fascinating to go through and watch how packer argues enumerating thethings that the charismatics get right, that they that they do better than the reformed more traditionalist andthen showing what's deficient and then kind of proposing. We could call it athird way to move forward. It's also strikes me rating packer, all of thecomments about evangelicals and how partisan it is and the closing of theEvangelical Mind and how deficient it is. I mean if, if, if anyone else follows the same sort oftwitter accounts that we do it's a constant theme, but then I read Packardand think this is evangelicalism. This is evangelical, some kind of end itsbest and Packard just doesn't fit any of those caricature. So it's good towork through some of the charismatic issues with Packard as a guide another book Ibought on vacation an author that I enjoy. Reading Hampton sides in theKingdom of ice, the grand and terrible polar voyage of the USS Ganett read that one read around to think.Earlier. This year Hampton sides wrote one of my favorite books on the assassination of Martin LutherKing and he's just a master of the narrative, nonfiction form and candace Millard. WHO also is a goodauthor of that in her blurb. She says as soon as I finish the book I flippedthe first page and began reading again, so that kind of book, which is himerasobviously, and the last book that I've started to dip into is by Michael Ward,who of course did the groundbreaking work on C S, Lewis andNarnia books and the planets and the deeper meaning there has publishedafter humanity a guide to C S. Lewis is the abolition of man and of long concurred, with the belief thatvolition, a man is a classic of twenty century. Natural Law. concisely done a profoundwork and the sort of work that it's really helpful to have a guide to help. You see the philosophicalunderpinnings and the sort of things that Louis assume so I'm eager to getinto Michael Words Book and the publisher published a little version of abolition of man togo along with it. So you can read the original classic and read words guideto it as well. For the first time this year is a hattip to as an Andrew Wilson do this, but I'm keeping a list of all the booksthat I'm reading this year. I don't know if I'll publish it at the end ofthe year R or not that serves people or...

...not. Of course, I read books indifferent ways. We've talked about that before some very carefully some quicklyto get the the gist of it. Sometimes I'll, say: here's a big book, I'm goingto give it two hours, I'm going to get as much as I can and then other timesit's a it's your companion for many months as I was reading through the twovolumes on Princeton seminary from David Calhoun, but I finished a numberof books. I started some others, but I'll limit myself to just three from this summer. One. This is a book I had read yearsago. It's a little book. I picked it up again Steven Osmond, who was very well respected historian fromHarvard he has a little book ancestors, the loving family of Old Europe, whichwas in some ways as a do a new work, but it was some ways, a distillation ofa work he had published in the s with the with the auspicious title when fathersruled- and it was about basically about life and marriage and family life in pre, reformation and reformationEurope. Well, this is a shorter version, ancestors, the loving family in OldEurope. It's just fascinating because here's the top nothos story and lookingat primary sources- and you know he has wood cuts. He has you know some oldillustrations. It's really fascinating to see. Oh here's an illustration fromGermany in the sixteenth century of a pregnant woman and they label all thethings that happens to a pregnant woman or here's a manual of child rearing.You just you see things that are very much the same. Then you see things thatlook really different, but one of the themes and Osmans work on family andmarriage in fifteen sixteenth century Europe was topush against some of the scholarship. That basically said it was justunremitting horrors and stark authoritarianism and he's trying totrying to say they were more like us in some ways andunlike us in other ways, so really fascinating and maybe I'll maybe we'llbring that in a topic I've been reading, just as maybe a future thoughtspercolating on book ideas. Years down the line, I've just been reading a lotabout family life, about marriage, about bothcurrent and historical. So that was an interesting book. Another history bookGary Steward. You know Gary Right, Justin from your time at Bethelem Yep, we wereclassmates together at Beth, Leman like nine. So this is his publisheddissertation. I think I had read the dissertation or look through it brieflywhen I was working at my PhD, but now it's published. I don't have a right in front of me ifit's Oxford or Cambridge, but congratulations a year. It's calledjustifying revolution. American clergies argument for Public Resistance was basically whatwhat was the Christian argument for Revolution inthe colonies, and so it's a publish dissertation. So it's thick and it'sfoot none, but it's not that long and it's really helpful to think about it, and I guess I'mpartial to it, because maybe I'm a small part of this project, along withPaul House set and a number of other people who are trying to push backagainst what some of the older historiography said, namely that theChristian support for America and for the New Republican for Revolution was acapitulation to enlightenment ideas or as really selling out their reformedbirthright for republicanism and Stewart's book. Does a good job saying:Well, whether we are you agree with them or not. There were...

...careful Christian theological argumentsto justify the colonists revolution, and so he has five or six differentchapters looking at different people, and so I've found that very interestingand then book. I blogged about earlier in the summer, heralds of God by James S Stewart. Sohe is a church of Scotland. Ministery wrote this book, I think in the s andthe discerning reader will well wonder. I wonder what where he wastheologically on a few things, but put that aside it's as a preacher. I love Itry to read each summer a book on preaching sometimes I'll, go back toLloyd Jones preaching in preachers, but this is what I hadn't read before I hadheard. Allister beg recommend it and I found it very invigorating for the forthe pastoral preaching task and that's one of my goals with whatever writing Ihave each summer is to come back and feel re, energize and re invigoratedfor preaching, and so I belonged about that earlier in the summer, because Ithink one of the great struggles we face as pastors is it can feel likeintellectually, we know preaching matters, and yet it feels like wellblogging matters podcast matter, twitter matters, books, matter,conferences, matter, hot takes matter, who's, shaping people who's. Who areour people talking about during the week they're talking about an articlethat they read from this place that they're talking about a and hopefully we're not part of theproblem. So all of those things can be good, but it can feel like as a pastoris the task of preaching. Does that really? I know the answer, but doesn'treally work. Does it really matter, and so I found that book helpful, some practicalthings, but more just at a heart level and one of the things that's humblingand encouraging. At the same times, it's been like this. For years, when Icome back for my summer study break people invariably say I always makesure that I'm there, the very first Sunday that we plan our vacation. So wecan be back the first Sunday you're back and it's not because of me butthey'll say that's going to be maybe your best sermon of the year becauseyou've had rest you're, fresh you're, reinvigorated, there's, a new energy,and so that's encouraging. It's also humbling and it's good for those of uswho are pastors and preachers to realize. Sometimes we get more worndown and then then we realize the lots of other books that we can talk about,but just in a Collin, very good to be with you again looking forward in theweeks ahead, have an interview with Jim: Do Hizer in our next episode LordWelling, and was a teachers counseling at Orts and going to talk to him aboutabuse. So that will be a good conversation. We're trying to light upsome other interviews throughout the fall and of course well. Three of uswill be together. So thank you good to be with you friends and for ourlisteners, glorify God enjoy him forever and until then read a good book.

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