Life and Books and Everything
Life and Books and Everything

Episode · 2 weeks ago

Evangelism, with William Taylor


From the 2021 Faithful Conference, Kevin interviews keynote speaker William Taylor. Taylor is the rector of St. Helen’s Church in Bishopsgate, London. There is a lot of fun banter, book recommendations, and a wealth of advice about evangelism, but what shines through most clearly is William Taylor’s firm faith in the Word of God to accomplish the mission of the church.

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William Taylor [0:00 – 3:23]

End the Confusion! [3:23 – 4:56]

Conversion Story [4:56 – 10:27]

Hospitality [10:27 – 14:26]

Personal Miscellany [14:26 – 17:59]

St. Helen’s and Dick Lucas [17:59 – 26:02]

Teaching and Planting in England [26:02 – 32:35]

Christian America [32:35 – 35:19]

The Word: One to One [35:19 – 39:32]

Evangelism Advice [39:32 – 46:03]

Lightning Round: Books! [46:03 – 56:13]

Books and Everything:

By William Taylor:

The Word: One to One

Revolutionary Work: What's the point of the 9 to 5?

Read, Mark, Learn series

On Evangelism:

Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, by J.I. Packer

Knowing God, by J.I. Packer

Questioning Evangelism, Second Edition: Engaging People's Hearts the Way Jesus Did, by Randy Newman

Know and Tell the Gospel, by John Chapman

Evangelism As a Lifestyle: Reaching Into Your World With the Gospel, by Jim Petersen

True Devotion: In Search of Authentic Spirituality, by Allan Chapple


The Jeeves & Wooster books by P.G. Wodehouse

It fo greetings and salutations welcome tolife and books and everything I'm Kevin Young glad to have you with us. We arethankful for crossway there sponsorship of this podcast and want to mention thenew book just released from Ray Orland and the past few weeks ormonths, the death of corn ray of season pastor, who is writing a pastoral andin some ways, fatherly book and then to speak to the ever increasing issue ofpornography and its addiction, so check that out the death of born by ratemortland. We have a special podcast episode. We recently at our Church ChristCovenant held a Faithful Conference, which is our annual conference, andthis year our guest speaker was William Taylor, who is the senior pastor atSaint Helen's church in the financial district of London, I've known Williamfor many years and have been over and they have he and his wife. Janet, havewonderful gifts of hospitality and I've stayed there along with many others andabout five years ago my whole family. We had six kids at the time, stayedthere for the better part of two months and when you're living in a flat inLondon with another family and a gaggle of children, safe to say that you havesome bonding, and so we are very fond of the tailors and had wanted them tocome over to the states for some time they were supposed to come over lastyear, but of course they couldn't with Ovid and in the L in the Lord'skindness, the very day of their flights turned out to be the very first daythat the US was allowing British citizens into the country. So theyarrived recently and as a part of our conference. I conducted an interviewwith William and we want to play that for you. Hopefully, you will be edifiedto hear about the work of the Gospel in London and in the UK. William is a keyleader and encourager there among conservative Anglicans, and not justamong the Anglicans but Gospel Men and Women and GospelChurches of various denominations in the UK, so hope that you benefit fromthis interview in this conversation with William Taylor. This is always great fun for me anddon't know if it's fun for the person I'm interviewing or for the rest of you,but it's at least great fun for me to get to interview people that I know itlike and respect and can learn from, and so we're going to spend to abouteight thirty, that's okay, asking questions. I say we, but I guessactually, I'm the only one asking the questions and we will have some life.Some ministry. We have time we'll talk a little bit about books. Some will beserious. Some will be less serious, so William, thank you for being with us.Let me ask you a less important question to start out.Could you explain England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom?What's going on there? Are you three countries? Are you one country what ishappening there and is that the British Isles, Oh then, the British isles andthe common well, a we tended to go to the connegan. It's just one countryGreat Britain is England, Scotland and Wales, but sometimes in some sportingevents. UNITED ISM includes northern island is a political. Allie ispolitical thing and the bridge isles is the whole island of Ireland, includingthe Republic, so in the World Cup, it's just England,in football, yes right and in rugby yeah and in cricket. It's just Englishin Scotland- has a team, yes yeah, of course. Yes, but what about theOlympics? Then it's Great Britain yeah, that's right, yeah! Well, we don'tthink we can beat the world in everything. No on our ring, all your own, so you need.Then you need as many as many many oltre a many people. We can hope. Okay,a of them, you know, were born in the common wealth and I've decided to takeup what was it? Wasn't it Boris who said after the maybe theLondon Olympics, when you were winning cycling and you were winning rowing,you were winning on. He said anything that we can do while we're sitting downwe're really quite good at it. So very good, so tell us a little bitabout o yourself. Where are you from?...

How did you become a Christian? So Iwas born on a small working farm right down in the west of England. Yousometimes see detective series on Corn Wall is the place that I was born andit was a family farm. So we did all the work and everything. So that's where Iwas I was born. My family were Christian, but very much formally so ina very kind of English way. The church was a church of England was poor, it Imean impoverished. It was a poor church, didn't really get much gospel there,but in that part of the world they went to the local church. I became aChristian. My grandfather was in those days in England, a well knownevangelist and I was staying with him for a period when I was at boardingschool, and I was encouraged to spend a little bit of time away from theboarding school for reasons which we we needn't go into to see the see when youare naughty boy. I think I think it was both the naughtiness and a desire toensure that I graduated without being removed. Yes, so I spenta time way and then came back for a day in order to graduate so. But when I waswith my grandfather, who had been praying for me all my life, he took meover the course of the week, the three or four days and finally, on thatSaturday evening, to John Five, twenty four and that's where I surrendered tothe Lord Jesus. There then began a phenomenal battle because I didn'trealize the Gospel was Jesus. Christ is Lord. So I really responded to I'lltalk about this tomorrow morning, but I really responded to Jesus died on theCross and loves me, but I didn't respond to the Lordship of Christ, andso my first two years at university was you know massive massive battle: Wereyou going to surrender everything and take up your cross and follow? And so-and you know, praise God he had hold of me and if you go to in the states, ifyou go to Harvard or Princeton or Yale you just kind of never you sort ofleave that out. You don't want to seem pretention, so you went to a littleschool called Cambridge. You won't, you won't say it, but I'll say it for youis that where you met Janet, no, I met Janet at Janet d. This is a shockingreality. Janet does not remember this, but the first time I met her was at theback of Saint Helens, okay, but she that didn't feature in any of hermemories, where it was a big in my mind and and then we didn't get married, Isort of had always thought I would like to marry Janet one day, but I didn't it didn't happen till you know.Where did you get married in one thousand? Nine hundred and ninety onethousand nine hundred and ninety tell us about your three kids. Well, emilyis twenty seven married. Her husband works in one of the church plants fromSaint Helen's, they're, very independent, the churches, so he worksthere. Emily Teachers Digby is our next son. He is married and he lives justaround the corner. They be live just around the corner and Digbee Dick byworks in the field sports industry who shoots things he and fishes he's apassionate Fisher and and then praise the Lord. All three of them areclear and committed Christians, and then Archie is currently in a regiment called the Irish guardshe's in the British army. So and you served in the army, I did. How did youget there? What did you do? I was in an infantry regiment that was formed inthe American war of independence or the sixty who won. I think we let you win,didn't we I, as one of those ones where you weren't set, was a ingle. Perhapsit was on. Maybe we should so be at a bit, so you Strahl at the empire. Yesyeah anyway, so it was. It was a terrible time and now, but you didn'tfight in that war. I will not part of that, but the the sixtieth Americanrifles became. You know the sixties and then then the Royal Green Checker. So Iwas an infantry officer in the British army and you serve toward the end ofthe troubles and northern yeah we had. I was in for five years and we did atour of Belfast and you know it's all of that was. It was still quitedangerous in parts it was, it was quite dangerous. I mean we had a very in those days. The intelligence was very, very good,and so you would always know when there was about to be something to happen andthey would actually, in those days take everybody off the street. Our group worked both all across the whole of West Westbe fast, so we did the whole piece and we would often be the first people atafterwards, and it was I mean it. was you look back on it now. You know thethese. If there was something about to happen, the Catholics would crossthemselves as they passed you, and that was always a little bit unnervinglittle bit of a tail a little bit unnerving, but but we had a quiet tallwitches. I I've been to bell fest a few...

...times. Maybe I went once with you oryou set up with some group over there. Yes and they say, oh, but that we'reputting you in the most bombed hotel in your own right, but it hasn't beenbombed recently. I know- and you know the troubles have been in- it's beenthere's still stuff going on, but it's a lot quieter and my old thought thatwe stayed in has been turned into a supermarket. Oh for very good. That'ssomething! Isn't it it's good, so we mentioned earlier in theintroduction that you had us stay with you. Thank you for that. But you've hadmany many people. In fact rare is the time I think when you don't havesomeone staying in your flat. Is this something that you and Janet talkedabout before you were married? Did you both come, but how? How are you both sohospitable? Is it something cultivated or just comes easily to you? I thinkJanet is a great hostess. That's true. I think the church were very brilliantin managing to get hold of a house that ison five floors. The top floor is a flat permanently lived in by a ministrycouple in the church. The next floor is a flat where, when we children growingup, there was a bedroom for work for our daughter, but there was always aplace there. I started at Saint Helen's, which was a big church at the time agedthirty seven and very, very raw. I wasn't like somebody like you who had alot of experience. I was very raw in Gospel work and I am so thankful thatwe had been able to have people and it's it has so enriched some Helen's.Yes, and I think things in the United Kingdom becausewe've been able to say to people come stay for seven weeks with your sixchildren. What was it? You said it was a greattest for us all for us all. That's what you said I mean, and I thoughtprimarily the test was in this direction, but it was a great. It was a.It was absolutely when it was one of the happiest theories of the lasttwenty years. I mean we look back when it was such. Do we use O them? I justthere must be thick walls, you didn't know they were all up on the fourthfloor and whenever we were in in the evening, we'd have all this family downand they'd sit around our table in the kitchen we feed them hot chocolate. Ispike their chocolate with endless spoons of sugar. It was just such Idon't. I can't think how any of you slept at all, but it was a great fun,but it's been very enriching because these kind of what I call them Gospeltriangulations. You know: We've had very strong relationship with Sydney, avery strong relationship with South Africa people in Singapore. Many here now in America. That's theGod. You know developed a lot more. We've had people like mark the stayscoming next to you and stuff, and it's just been very rich for us as a churchand for the English evangelical scene to be exposed to people who are who areon the same page, doing ministry and it just is very enriching, and it's beengood for us because I said I was clueless and I used to have thesepeople down for supper, and I just you know just grill them. What do you doand what do you do? You know because it was very all very new for me. Well, itwas. It was delightful to stay with you just one more thing about your yourhouse, so how many of you have I mean out where he lives, everyone can gofind his place. Now any of you have seen the movie Christopher Robin andeven the winny, the Pomo. That's where William lives tell us about that. Itreally is yeah. It is so. I can't remember the guy who was at who was theact. I mean genuine McGregor, that's the chat, yeah yeah. We passed him inthe street channels, get that's you macgregor right, didn't know which oneswith three or four people. Ain't got no clue you was, but anyway there we go.He it was done. They close the whole street off, they put, you know likethey do in so those white row houses very English. It's filmed that it's inquite a number of films, and so it's an helen so outside Saint Helen's isleadenhall market, which is the opening scene of the Harry Potter Film. So Igets the ones where he gets the ACOL and the magic and all that sort ofstuff. Yes, Oh you just have it all over there. What's the built more, didyou just think, and we have castles. It was really very impressive. We have,we have pretty trees, it was not was absolutely true. I thought the artinside was amazing. The garden was great. I just thought it was wonderful.It's a great treat well so leg. You could go a couple more things aboutyourself, you're, obviously busy hosting peoplefrom all over the world and preaching and doing things. You must do somethingfor fun. What do you do to let your hair down, such as it is? We still have a. We still have the farm down in the Westcountry. My mother lives there. My father died five years ago and we havewe have we built a house. In fact, I said to Janet after we came back frombiltmore woke up the next morning, so I'm so sorry darling. I didn't buildyou a house for sixty thrree rooms, but...

...we did build the house on the farm thatyou know the bathrooms, don't work and build more. She said quick as a flash,but our bathrooms work. Well, that's very good as anyway, so we get on there.I fish and you know, join Digby and the sort of things he does. But I also I godown there and that's where you know we do a lot of our relaxation, it's good.What is the most interesting in the most boring American sport to you, I enjoy watching American football, Imean it is great and you have those guys in it on the plane over on the wayover. I don't know if you've seen the if you like you ofthand the twelveorphans. I mean it's a great just an American football American Americanfootball. It was, I saw I enjoy watching, I mean baseball just goes on forever, but then I enjoywatching cricket and that last five days, so I really baseball you don't know, what'shappening yeah, so last question we'll get to ministry.What's The you know in America we like to hearwhat other people think is it is it still when people here you're going toAmerica. They say, though, that's great or watch out you're going to get shotup or I was on a plane one time and there was a woman from Germany therenext to me and just making small talk- and she just said- and I was in thestate or she knew I was from the states- and she just said you want to know thetwo things that's wrong with your country. Well, of course, I do that'swhat I was hoping. She said. You have too many guns and you don't have enoughtrains, so fair enough, yeah, fair enough. We I reckon we do have moreguns than trains, but what's the Gen, I'm not sentiment. I don't talk abouteither of those. Now I'm not going to op going there, I'm not getting it now.I think we admire them. I mean Americans are remarkable, I mean, andit's and so generous. We have. A lot of Americans come to San Helen. So it'snot an unusual yeah right. We got several Americans on the staff, youknow so we're we're at es and you think the accent is interesting. American S.I think it's very interesting people say to me you all and I'm lookingaround going. Who else is here or you know you use guy, you want to go of thebathroom and I'm thinking you know. I think I you know had a Tertian as Ineed to take a bar. So so, but now, generally speaking, we when we lovecoming is Janet's first visit to America and what I love coming here andpeople are so generous and so friendly. Yes, in England, they were what sweatersweaters over, but you call them jumpers m right. So that's that'sunusual. Jumper is what little kids wear with have little foot seas. Sowhen I would say the re you know meet the vicar and he's in a jumper, I'mjust picturing something do T. I don't wear that yeah, I don't wear a jump inthe word pain, O one is different. Now you have one these here. Yes, no, Idon't wear that Ye. Okay, junkets jumpers all right, Saint Helen's. Thiswas the parish Church of William Shakespeare. Old Is Saint Helen's,twelve century twelve yeah, the oldest BITs, the twelve century, so it isquite old it. So the celebrating our fortieth anniversary, very good yeah. Well, that's wonderful,O an that's great, but I mean there are lots of problems with an old building.You know there are big problems with it, although it was bond in one thousand,nine hundred and ninety two by the IRA and again in one thousand nine hundredand nine and ninety three. I was at ninety one and ninety three, and so we were able to do a lot. Then,before I came, thank I used to go to sin. Helen in th is but and then came back as it on the staffand then as the rectas the director there, but that enable us to do a lot. So thefloor is completely flat. We raise it up five foot each few centuries,depending on where a church is at the theology impacts the architecture,and you can see that in England you see when a church has been Anglo Catholicor if a Church has been in a Gospel centered. You have very high pope. Youdon't always preach from that O, not always, but often because we have abalcony and you can actually address people in the balcony much better fromthe pulpit, but that there are. There are a number of things, so we were ableto change the laudo the church very substantially, which makes it much moreflexible. The church is twelve century. There have been some remarkable timesat Saint Helen's done through the sentry. You look at the monuments youcan see when they believe the Gospel from what they set about their death,which is rather lovely seventeenth century Thomas Haughton preached andwas it fifth? Forty seven sermons on Romans, eight, you know- and- and it'sreally I mean it's- not the kind of preaching I would do, but it's good.It's good, solid, it's very solid yeah, but it's good stuff and it's rightthere, some. I know some people have er been to London, it's right there in thefinancial district. So next to the Gerkin, the one that looks like a bigpick, that's right! So there are tool...

...buildings all around us. Men is calledthe Gerke it a cheese, great of the obvious, weird names they have. Youknow the scalpel, the walke talking that but they're all there. It's it'sless banks. Now it's mostly insurance. A lot of law lawyers, things connectedwith insurance, a few banks they're all there and you know pre pandemic. Therewould be five hundred thousand people within less than a square mile of Sand Helen's.So it was among the most densely populated areas in the world in theworking day, and so you can imagine the evangelistic opportunity of that ishuge, huge yeah. So back up a little bit to your predecessor. Yes, many people here would know of some ofthe Great Post War leaders and Evangelical evangelicalism in England,Martin Lloyd Jones. I was in London from whales, but I was in London,Westminster Chapel and people would have read some of his books. CertainlyJohn Start, and his commentary is also in London, but but the third really ofthe three giants, probably less known to us, but as your predecessor, DickLucas, so tell us about Dick he's y six years old that still lives next door toyou. What was the church like when he came and what has been his impact onSaint Helen's in abroad? Massive I mean the church was effectively derelict when he came. There was six inthe congregation, and this is what years one thousand nine hundred andsixty one sixty one, and there was six in congration one was Christian. Therewas a choir paid right, and that was it, and butthere were praying business men in those days in the city who were wanting to evangelize their friends andso they've been asking Dick to come and do occasional talks for them and thatincreased and then Saint Helen's came up and they applied and Dick just hesaid well I'll fill in the application. He really didn't expect to get it. Hegot it and then you know the work grew and at its height there would have beensort of four fifty five hundred business people on a Tuesday lunchflaming coming to hear the Gospel a lot more people went to church in thosedays, but that's they would be coming in and he is a absolutely brilliantexpositor of scripture. So Dick would say that John Stott and aguy called Alan stibbs, really modeled expository preaching. That is where your preaching comes outof the text, rather than using the text as a spring board. What I calltrampoline preaching using a text as a spring board to teach whatever you wantto teach, whether it's your doctrine or the point. You think the congregationneeds to know so dick really developed, expository preaching and really focusedon England. Initially, and you know the growth in amongst evangelicals inEngland. You know he was profoundly influential in, which is why I guesshe's slightly less well known globally, because he focused very substantiallymaybe didn't write the diferent commentaries like stars. He is not awriter, I mean he's like Lord John He's, absolutely not a writer, and he willwrite a script then think I changed my mind and scrap it or then think it'snot good enough and anyway somebody else he's very humble you. Then he justhe's not a writer, but you can find his sermons on the website. I popped in tosee him, I mean he is still recording material. He still works. You knowthree hours a day so day I single e got married and I said to him because he very he won'ttalk about himself he's just impossibly difficult to talk to because he alwayswants to know what you're doing and tell us how Kevin is, because you knowhe's very fond of you, Kevin and so forth. So I said, and what are youworking on s? He is doing a recording on Matthew, eleven come to me all. Who are weary and thestuff is, you know riveting, so he gave me a like twenty minute exposition. AsI sat there, I wish I had a notebook with Startin and Dick Lucas, bothsingle hortos with the Lord. What was that was that something of an ideal forthat generation that I thought to really serve the Lord. We we're going to be single, or is thatmaking too much out of just two anecdotes? I think there was in the ministriesfrom which they came, and I was part of that for a period. Ifyou want to be really very keen, you know the highest is to be single forthe Lord and though it may not have...

...been taught explicitly. I think thegreat models were, and I don't think that was healthy right and I don'tthink it was healthy for me and I don't think it was healthy for it for a lotof people, but you know that that is to I don't want to speak ill or that work,because so much good came out of it Dick Actually. So I've interviewed DickI've done eight one and a half hour interviews and in one of the interviewshe says you know I come from a long line of Bachelors and Bachelor Bachelor.Do a me not that long, a life they would have be it. We were to come froma long line. There are many back Ri care, he has many back. Yes, this iswhy you enjoy asking the question. Yes, I very good, thank you. So anyway, hecomes from a family where there are many bachelors. His brother was abachelor, so you know, and that I don't think I think he is some. You know hedidn't want to get married, so yeah and you're preaching here tonight, and itwas wonderful, thank you and preaching and speaking about the realities ofeternal punishment. You do at Saint Helen's and we know that you've writtena book about Biblical sexuality, so you're, very clear and winsome, butfirm on that issue and you're. Also the church is complementaries. It's view ofmen leading in the home and leading the church. Does this make you very unpopular with Londoners, or even moreso perhaps with some in your own Anglican communion? What do peoplethink of when they think of this retrograde movement going on at SaintHelen? And what is interesting is that the churches that are growing inEngland there are other churches of growing,but the churches who are from you know normal classic evangelical position aregrowing and planting new churches. Now I don't think the world has noticedwhen the world notice is. It will get very, very uncomfortable, but I don'tthink the world has particular mean they do know. In the city city, astanish ent, one of the Old City boys came up to me. The other day- and hesaid I was doing some civic thing- he saidyou have a reputation. You know I didn't ask him what it was, but youknow I said they know they know where we stand and at the moment the world iskind of slight, but the London Dia sees that that it's not very fun. No, no. No!It's the IT'S! The Anglican Liberal eavan really don't like us at all. Having said that, they are pragmatistsand they want life and they need money. You know and they're dying, so wholedices are cutting, so bishops have something called dioces and that's anarea and they're cutting clergy numbers by twenty five percent, for example,and so when we plant churches and we blant churches in other people's dances,that's the best fun is to do they. Don't I in self is parish, but somebodyelse is dioses. You go into another bishops, taces and you plant a church,that's good, and we have done that and I have been met by not only theincumbent of the church but also a lawyer, to try and prevent US startinga new church and then, when the these are shirt, these are church churchpeople trying to stop you see. Church e population of your parish is tenthousand people. How many come to your church, a hundred and fifty, but we'retrying to reach the nine thousand right. Whatever I E, I can't do the mail it toas a hundred and fifty a yeah, whatever whatever it is, yeah yeah, so we'retrying to reach those guys. So we're not a threat to you. You know, wouldn'tit here say but then, but what's interesting, is as those churches growclassic English Establishment. They then come to you the establishment andsay I wonder now. If your churches is a ten years later might like to join thediocese, you know because they want the growth and say so say a bit more. Whatis the the spiritual state? I know you don't know the whole, but, but you arevery well connected in Saint Helen's is with the Gospel Partnerships andproclamation trust in a lot of not just Anglicans but broader evangelicalmovements. Well, are you encouraged by the Gospel work going on in England? We,I think we probably have a picture here of there's just hardly any good news tospeak of or it's it's incredibly secular, and maybe both those thingsare true. I think worth a things are true, but I think there is a hiddenwork going on of faithful men in Gospel Churches with men andwomen serving the Lord, which would have been unthinkable thirty years ago,and you kind of think what is the Lord...

...doing in a Dr Callam Brown read a bookcalled the death of Christian Britain, you may come across it and he chancedthe decline of the mainline denomination that a liberal andbasically no longer gospel churches. And, of course, you know if you're abanker who doesn't believe in money, your bank is not going to do very welland if you're, a Christian who does not preach the Gospel you're, going to godown the plug hole over time, it takes a long time. But that is happening andin some ways I think well, thank God because you're only doing people damage and quietly there is not the numbers ofa tiny. The numbers are tiny, but quietly so I try and pray for theLondon pastors who I know on a Saturday and back in the day. You know when I was inth ights in the army coming into London, there would have been possibly threechurches one might have for one might have gone to and think well, I'm goingto hear, I didn't know all the churches, but now you know they're thirty orforty pastors I'll, be very happy to go and sit in their church and hear areally good Serb yeah London. So it's catchy some parts of the country.Alongside that, the free, independent Church F, I see Felton in en churches,have grown again tremendously and so the FIC, theIndependent Evan Geco Churches, have Brown, remarked it and there's a guycalled John Stevens, who kind of heads up that we are great friends. We workvery closely together, he's doing a fantastic job and do you work with withsome of the the Presbyterian? So we have we try a few. I know you're tryingthat to we have been trainer from the IPC and Presbyterism Robert. Yes, it'svery it's very small. You got to get pull Levi out here. I pot. Yes, we do and- and we have something calledthe Gospel Partnership, so we work within the Anglican something calledrenew which I'm very involved in, but we also set up the Gospel Partnershipsand the Gospel harders. Hips is churches of all types. Things can easeso pleased to see, got marked ever coming. You know it's just wonderful,so that we're all gospel people and we would say okay as a partnership wherewe will try and plant churches together and Saint Helen's. We would send peopleto an independent Evangelical Church if the Guy is a gospel man and have doneso. We've helped people start churches from different on it, and I think thatis can only be good. Yeele you've been to America before, but you follow a lotof things does. Does America strike you as very Christian, compare to yeah yeah,very yes, yeah in what ways is how do you surther churches?Everywhere I mean it's just unbelievable. You know you go around acorner and there's another church, and it's from what I understand is peopleactually turn up. You know if you do a leaflet campaign or something like that,it must be changing, it must be ratis and you get that sense, but in England,because of an established church which is so dominant, the Church ofEngland and because liberal rationalism through the German universities cameinto England in the mid nineteenth century we havehad a hundred and fifty years as that, would you say a hundred and fifty yearswould set. We've had a hundred an fifty years, so I said you know somebody's never heardof Abraham. You know I'll be talking to people reading John's Gospel with them,and you know they have not the first clue about Jesus. They know nothing,nothing and so we've got a hundred and fifty years, whereas I feel if you cometo America, even if you go to New York or Seattle and on the on the East orwest coast, the person probably has had a grandparent rob who was in touch withauthentic Christianity, and so I think some people don'trealize just how rich you know, your even your mainline denominations ECARTEmay be all off of Peace Now, but it wasn't and also you've, not just gotone dominant Church of England right. You've got baptists and you've got yes.I P it's easy for people to Conservative Christians at times todisparage, oh, the Bible belt and all there's hypocrisy in the but and all ofthat's true, of course, there's nominalism, but what a heritage- and westill have quite a bit of it in Charlotte Charlotte's changing to. Butwhat? What a heritage to be lots of NonChristians but, as you said, usually they're, not a hundred and fifty yearsdistant from Authentic Christianity, there's a parent or there's agrandparent and there's you know: Fifteen good, P, CA, churches in townand many other good baptist churches and all sorts of other churches, and Ithink we just sometimes we almost in a...

Mer. We almost wish it away like. Oh itwould be just so good really it wouldn't I mean, let's, let's make surethe churches are really authentic and the people are really Christian, butthere's something very rich about that heritage. You lose it. It is very hotto very hard to ever get back, yeah, so you're here talking about evangelismand we have so much to learn from you. I'm glad you're speaking three timestomorrow, but talk about this resource. You just alluded to it. The word one toone. This is a guided read through John's Gospel Chapter One. One of thethings you pick up about William is in St Helen's, and it's all. It really isall about the word it is about. Reading the Bible. It is so you actually okaydifferent context, and maybe, if you do this here in Charlote people say Ialready know all that, but but you actually in people they got. You talkto neighbors and say. Would you like to read the Bible with me, and sometimesthey say? Yes, that's right, so I do actually believe that the word of Godis the key to all ministry. You know if you want a silver bullet it that is thesilver bullet, not anything else. If you're going to train for GospelIndustry, it's the Bible, and if you want to train you know if you want to grow up as a disciple inChrist, it's the Bible, and if you want to evangelize it is theword of God, the Bible. Now that is not, as I mean, it seems, asort of such a sort of basic thing to say, but then what does it look like inpractice? So in all my personal avantes M, I have read through the Bat John's Gospel withpeople inquiring and I've done it with endless people, a business, an came tome and said I want to do what you're doing. Will you teach me and he did itbecause he'd taken his colleagues to kind of apologetic things andeventually one of them said. Why do you just tell us what Jesus actually saidand you know they'd been to endless other things, but so he said, will youteach me? I thought I was give gonna, give him three sessions on how to onhow to read the Bible one to one with somebody after the third session. Hesaid: when are we meeting next and then and next and next next, and it thentranspired that he was going home and writing up what we've been doing itdoing, and then he was going to his colleagues as if he were having abusiness meeting and presenting them with two sheets. He would have one theywould have the other and working through it as if it was a contract andsaying here's the text in a let's work for it and using the stuff. Soeventually, I ended up dictating this to him and then gradually graduallyworked up. Now. What you've got here and Jonathan, I'm sure, will saysomething about this, but you've got the text on one side, questions on the other, so you don'thave to be a Bible teacher. You can be a Bible sharer and you havemore of these. This is John One. You have yeah yeah. It goes right the waythrough to Yeah John Twenty one yeah, because we think I think this is thetract one of the tracks God has given us. I think it is John, the theologianactually who is teaching us, and I think this will train you both indiciple to become a Christian and it will train you into cycleshop, and sowhat what Richard did was simply laid out. It's done beautifully and you bothhave a copy, and you say that people are doing this all over the world instar Barks, and you know we, wherever in their offices, you know after school, you know monthsgoing out and so forth all over the place, and it's been translated toChinese and Alan Mandarin and so forth. So, but it's you sit down, you sayright, read the page and you read the page andthen have you got any further questions and did you understand what it saidhere? Okay, let's turn the page and it's Extraordinary Reading for John'sGospel. I suddenly find half way through I'm reading with a Gar. At themoment he was ex special forces he's just you suddenly realize he isactually now a Christian and what John Says in Chapter Twentyverse, Thirty and thirty one I've written this. You may believe God's been at work. I believe when youare studying the Bible with one other person, there are actually three peoplein the room and it's electric God is there at work, yeah it it's really wonderful in. Let me ask you follow up question, so you are a very strong personalevangelist. Besides preaching evangelism, some of the other ministers.I know who are really good at personal advanges of Mark Ever Max Styles, EricRuss, who we brought here in you all. No Eric can get to no Eric I've. Seenhim one of those things that all of you menhave in common is in a godly way, you're confident and I I would say allof the your outgoing energized by...

...people extroverted. So we don't want tolet people off the hook and yet you must have people come up to you and say:Well, I'm very quiet, I don't I don't love to meet New People like you doWilliam. What does it look like for someone who doesn't have yourpersonality often- and I think people who are very quiet probably find me apain in the neck, and so I say to somebody like that: Godhas made you the way he's made you and you will find that there are otherpeople like you out there who don't want to meet with. Will who don'treally? You know the thought of meeting with me. They would rather, but I don'tknow what they would rather do. You know so and some fun enough. Some ofthe best evangelists Saint Helen's have been timid as a mouse courageous as a lion. One of the guys said to me before Ileft, I lovely guy, an Indian guy. I said I'm speaking on this. You knowwhat should I, what should I say to them and he said be bold and leave the rest of God, and I think I think I talk about Hannahtomorrow. You know she went to levels as a lawyer was a big Law: firm, timid,timid, timid, but actually she had the gospel, and so there are three peoplein the room and she fancy would find other people like her, and then we encourage people whohaven't got friends in the same sort of weight. Why did you join a club? One ofour one of the ladies on our staff is absolutely brilliant. Women work. Sheworks alongside us on the star, she's fantastic. She joined the localgardening group that looked after the local area, she's now evangelizing. Twopeople from that group, one of them as profess faith, I think but she's justsaying I find it hard to make friends blood of a Lord, a say she trying tolook o another girl has joined a craft group. You know just so, and yousuddenly find actually there's somebody else, who's a bit quiet like me, andit's good. I told this told the story before I'm sure, but the pool that Iswim at here there is a woman I mean I have to go out, that's how I meet NonChristians and I'm not as good advanges as you are, but this woman was next tome, and someone said Oh you're so ly nice to Kevin, he's a pastor and sheshe said, I'm not religious, and I said that that's okay and shesaid no, I'm really not religious, and I said that's, okay. Can I can I stillswim in in a man next to you. She said yes, but I just want you to know. I'mreally not religious and I finally said I promise. I won't baptize you herenext to you, we'll just swim next to each other, so I should be. It is harder. My excuse is,it is harder to evangelize under water. It is yes, it is but easy it's about,tie easier to baptize. Yes, so you just crossed the threshold into sixty yeahand you have been in ministry for three decades or more now, and what sort of reflections do youhave on endurance in ministry or what sort of things would you want? Youngpersons here to know maybe they're considering vocational minister? Maybeit's a pastor, but it could be men or women, thinking about counseling or orcampus ministry, or simply they're working their job, but they want theirlife to count for for the Gospel. What sort of things would you want thoseyoung people to know? I think one of the most importantlessons for me, early on in leadership at San Helen's, was working through twoCorinthians and those court. What I call the causal clauses, the so thatthe God deliberately keeps a person weak in order that the glory will always beseen to the his, and you probably sit here and think, OhKevin, you know see him on Sunday and all the rest of it. You can be sure that God willdeliberately keep his Gospel workers weak. There are these three calls ofclauses I almost as pared of life itself. All says this happens so thathe put this treasure in jars of play so that the glory might be seen to be his.I will boast all the more in my weakness so that the paragon might rest upon me,and I think it's really just very helpful to know that. I think if youdon't know that you look over your shoulder and think it's going to beeasier somewhere else. So that's one thing. The second, theword of God really is sufficient. It really is sufficient and, as youteach the word of God, God will train you and God will keep you there's thewonderful verse in one Corinthians Four. I think it's first eight. If you putthese things before the brothers you...

...will in one timothy, for I say, if youput these things for the brothers, you will be a good workman. Now then saysbeing trained. Paul doesn't say if you put thesethings before the brothers you'll be a good workman having been trained. So what pulls understanding is. Is that,as you do, ministry, God will train, you doesn't mean we shouldn't go for aspecialist training and that sort of stuff, but actually doing the work. Theword really is sufficient and that the heart of all the training we do that'sannoys. We do a lot of training. It is that the word is sufficient, so getthem into the word and if you think actually I know all that and you've. Probably then how can yousay that about the Bible? I mean it's just an extraordinary thing to say youknow now, if you think you know the Bible already, you clearly have notread it very carefully and you need to go back to square one and start allover again because you've just skimmed over it. I mean yeah anyway. Sorry we,I won't go off anyone on that, all right, we're coming up to our step, I'mgoing to do lightning round with just some books yeah, so you can justmention one or two favorite books on a van to listen. Istill think Aventin and sovereign of God, its brilliant. It's out there. Iasked for it to be there. Question Advanges, I think, is brilliant,because were I am too quick to tell people that I think, rather than to askthem very good. I told William before this whole talk. I said I want you tochannel your inner inner American and just be happy to talk about yourselfand- and just you know he said, do I have to cry. I said not that kind ofI'm Dutch after all, so now give us a couple of your books thatpeople might want to look at. That might be helpful L. I ask them to bringrevolutionary work here, because I do think one of the biggest spiritualbattles for a Christian is to realize that Godhas put them in work first, as a Christian before they are whatever they're doinggo. CAN RAISE UP BANKERS TO A penny? I mean really, you know bankers, it's soeasy to find so, and God can raise up surgeons just like that. So you're, nota surgeon who happens to be a ChristianGod's. Put you there as a Christian to do his work and his work is to savethe lost so you're there first as a Christian second as a surgeon and ifactually being Christian and evangelizing the lost in your hospitaland so forth, and helping the young guys coming in young women and so forthis not possible for you, they're going to get a different different job, be ahairdresser. I think. Actually, hairdresser is much easier,evangelistic position, an the surgeon. So, for goodness sake, if you can't dothe work as a banker, because you know you feel you can't do it, it's notright for you. We can get a better job where you can actually do the work ofGod. So that's the sort of revolution y work,I'm not so Johnson, but I tried to write some very kind of topic about,but the other ones have been on handling the scriptures. So Yeah you've got one there. So there's aseries of Bible study. You, a meety Bible studyin Luke in Romans in John, so read, Mark and learn, which is aline from the book of common, is a lie speaking in some Anglican, but alsoread mark yes right clever, so this is John, so it doesn't have your name onit from Saint Ellen's. But but I know you worked on this and people often askme yeah. What's a good commentary for helping me lead my botle study for fora layman, and you know the start series is often very good. These are reallygood for that purpose. Thank you. I think I think I mean the thing. Is Wenever released one of those books before it had two or three years in oursmall group system? So it's really been W. that's why I tend not to put my nameon it because I want it is come out of the church right so that that's andwhat I also try to is produce stuff that is sermons written up, because Ithink you go and preach and you're trying to help. Somebody understandpreaching and you want them to see other models, so I just try and allright we're hustling on of one of your favorite books on explaining the Gospel.I still think John Chapman's book no and Tell The Gospel. If you can gethold, I don't think we would be familiar with most people when JohnChapman was a very famous a merit, Australian evangelist and he wasabsolutely Bridan and no one till the Gospel, I still think, is out there atthe top. I also found Jim Peterson the navigator. I didn't. I found his bookreally helpful. This was thirty years ago, but he's still still about JimPederson, I believe, and his book on every day of Angers and is another Ithink really help one in in terms of just O. thinking about you may notagree with it all its theology, but...

...some of the stuff they're on ReadingBible, one to one with people. You have a book for Christian discipleship after you sayyes, we're going to study John Study Mark. Is there? Is there a secondarybook that you give somebody? That said, this is a great book to help you justlearn and grow as a Christian. No, you don't! No, no! I I the Mira, I actually think the Gospels arewritten with in I mean if you want to use seminary language with modules, and I think the gospels train us indiscipleship and I don't think we realize that's what's going on in theGoss. Was this whole another discussion, but I think the gospels are training they're presenting Christ, but they'realso training us into Cyples. So I think it's very important to realizethat I would always give someone knowing God, but you know, I'm Gon. Istill think that's up there and the chapters are so short right and I'lloften when I'm reading with a Christian one to one say, have you read this? Whydo you read this and then we'll chat about it just at the ginning whilehaving coffee and then get into the Bible, so one time when I was there, Ithink you said this. I think you were talking about. Maybe what is themission of the Church or something at that point? You had said something likethis is maybe the second best book I've had my staff read yeast's like correct,but one of the OS o right. I know I wrote it, but I'm getting to the otherone. You said second, so I was like of course second vein, so I think anotherone of mine. What was first just do something. No it wasn't. It was thebook. True devotion, I think you said as about that book, we read it as astaff. Alan had a herd of a Valinca, but it was really eye opening and wereally enjoyed rate theologians. I think brought knocks at more one of the great theologians he's Unsung, but he was principal. He thenhe trained a whole group of people, the Jenson brothers, John Woodhouse, AllanChapel David Secum. They are all radical Bible thinkers, so they don'tthink what was I taught to think they don't even on the shocking to say,don't even think what did they think in the sixteenth century? I'm sorry. Theydon't think that they think what does the Bible say and Alan Chapel veryquiet, understated guy wrote this book, true devotion and I found itmagnificent. It's really good Alan Chapel and I met him, and I said youowe me a lot of money because all of your royalties, you knowreally most of them, are resell of me. Appetizing your book, and he said hesaid this. You just need to know William. It's a lot harder to do thanto write about. I thought what a great that gives you ameasure of the guy, and why should people read P G woodhouse PG Wood has, I think, will give you aninsight into the Europe. The inks are notChristian book. Someone and a P. It's my my Bible study. It you would have,is a CO comic jeeves and was to give you an insight into a very tiny segmentof eccentric English society from forty years ago. So it's veryfunny. It's a it's very funny. It's very clever. It's very clever all rightlast question: What is one truth or habit that the Lord has helped yousecure or impressed upon you that continues to be motivation for you insharing the Gospel. I think what we were talking about just earlier. Youknow when Paul says in two printings chapter: Five: The love of Christ controls me, for I have concluded that one died forall and therefore the all have died that those who trust live and I think,as you meditate on the Cross of Christ or on his love and then in just a few verses later. Hesays we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. So I seek topersuade men and I think those two things I went tothe Biliran Library today. I just think there is a man. You know he that wemust all appear before the judge. Think of the reality of judgment and think ofthe beauty of the love of Christ, and I think those two things and you noticebull says I have concluded, which means he's meditated on it. So if you'refeeling dry and evangelism meditate on the Cross and on the reality ofjudgment, yeah the line that I've heard and repeated many times as we are allnatural evangelists for the things in the people we love most- you love yourgrandkids. You would you look at this picture, my grand kid you get a crispycream. DONUT. Would you you have to it's. You know Tim Hawkins. It is likea baby angel melting in your mouth. You have to try these things. We talk aboutthe things we I love and if we don't...

...speak of Christ, we wonder what's goingon and that's right in our hearts yeah all right. We will late trails the whatthe Patriots aren't they, the guy who are the guy. What's your team calledwell, the Patriots just beat the Panthers Yeah, but your team or thebears the e they use yeah. That was it no. That was a a very. That was a verybad call. You wouldn't you would be an evangelist for that, but it'sabsolutely right. You know if we meditate on Christ I'll talk about thistomorrow morning as we meditate on the Gospel. Then how can you not that's right? Wonderful, all right, we will be backhere. Hopefully you can join us nine o'clock and you are dismissed not ando'clock. Tonight none o'clock to morrow morning we will be here. God bless. Ihope that you enjoyed that conversation. I love to be able to interview peoplethat I count as friends and know that I have alot to learn from that's, certainly the case with William, so until next time Ihope you will glorify God, enjoy him forever and read a good t.

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